Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Short-Term Rental Real Estate Investing with Avery Carl | EP73

Sep 29, 2021

In This Episode

Avery Carl is a Full-Time Real Estate Investor and Real Estate Agent Based in Florida. She helps Real Estate Investors Gain Knowledge in Order to Be Able to Invest their Money in Short Rentals, and Create More Passive Income. Through Strategic Investment and Short-Term Rental Properties and Maturification? Rental Market She was a Millionaire by 31 years. She Owns Over 24 Properties and is a CEO and Founder of Short Term Rental Shop, a Real Estate Team that Helps Investors Acquire Short-Term Rental Properties in the Most Recession Resistant Markets.

In this episode we talked about:

  • Avery’s Bio & Background
  • Short-Term Rental Properties
  • Vacation Rentals and Airbnb
  • Approach in Financing with Short-Term Rentals compared to Multifamily and Single Family Homes
  • Management Approaches
  • Metrics Used For Underwriting Properties
  • Out-of-State Investing, VAT Complexity
  • Avery`s Vision on how the lockdown has Affected the Real Estate Market
  • The Deals Avery is Looking For Currently
  • Dealing with Investors Out of the Country VS Dealing Local
  • Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned

Useful links:
https://theshorttermshop.com
https://www.facebook.com/theshorttermshop/

Transcriptions:

Speaker 0 (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you’re looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let’s build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jessica galley and you’re listening to working capital. My special guest today is Avery Carl through strategic investing in short-term rental properties and mature vacation rental markets.

She was a millionaire by 31 years old. She now owns over 24 properties and is the CEO and founder of short-term rental shop a real estate team that helps investors acquire short-term rental properties in the most recession resistant markets and trains them on the methods that led her out of the corporate rat race and into financial freedom. Avery, how you doing?

Speaker 1 (51s): Pretty good. How are you? And actually we’re at 96 doors. Now that, that outdated. Sorry.

Speaker 0 (57s): I kind of feel like that. That’s great. That’s good to hear. We were just saying before the show that I was looking through some old emails and it looks like we both spoke at BiggerPockets conference so hard to believe now it’s 2019, but you’re going to be talking it’s this weekend. You’re going to be talking on short-term rentals.

Speaker 1 (1m 16s): Yes, yes. Again, as will you, but not on short term. So we’re, we’re doing it again

Speaker 0 (1m 21s): Right on. Well, that’s great to hear. Well, thanks again for coming on to the show. I think our listeners will get a lot out of this. I really want it to have an episode where we can talk a little bit about your background and how you got into real estate, but also specifically talk a little bit about the short-term rental market for people that, you know, they know what Airbnb is, but perhaps don’t really know how people do invest in this market. And you know, also what the impact has been over the last 12 to 24 months in the short-term space. So maybe to kick it off, you could give our listeners a little bit of your background, you know, where you started and, and how you got into real estate,

Speaker 1 (1m 59s): Happy to do it. So I started in real estate kind of by accident. So my husband and I moved from New York city to Nashville in 2013. And we both had corporate music, jobs, music business, and we weren’t didn’t know anything about real estate or real estate investment. We knew we wanted to buy a house to live in because you can’t really do that in New York, at least not on the salaries we were on. And so the real estate agent that we had at the time was really trying to direct us to this really fast appreciating hipster area of Nashville called east Nashville.

And we said, eh, we are sick of neighbors. We came here from Brooklyn, we moved to Tennessee to be out in the country. So we want to buy something out in the country. So about something out in the country. And we thought, well, you know what, maybe there’s something to that fast appreciation. And people are selling their houses two years later for a hundred thousand dollars more. And we decided we wanted to do that, which is not the way to invest by the way. But we thought at the time, well, you know, maybe we can keep this house and maybe buy one more sometime and sell it in.

You know, however old our kids are at the time, we didn’t have any kids. So when our future kids go to college, we can sell those and pay for their college. And we’ll be like so smart and cool and savvy and not have to pay for that. And so we did buy a house in that area. And luckily that was a really, really great investment. We didn’t know it at the time that one, the mortgage was 650 bucks a month. We were renting it for 1500 a month. And after we got a few rent checks, we thought, okay, we really want to get into this. We’re going to build a business out of this.

So then we did all the educating ourselves piece that most people do before they buy a property. And we started reading all the books and listening to every podcast imaginable and we thought, okay, well we have one more down payment left. So what can we buy? That’s going to make the most amount of money, the fastest so that we can scale our portfolio as quickly as possible. So we landed on short-term rentals and we didn’t want to do it in Nashville rear living at the time because we thought that the regulations in Nashville are crazy. They’re changing all the time. It’s just not really somewhere. That is a safe place to invest regulation-wise.

So we thought, well, where can we go? That it’s the normal thing for people to go rent a house that somebody has to own instead of a hotel. So we landed on the smokey mountains, which is a few hours east of Nashville. Everybody goes there and stays in cabins on vacation, long story short, we bought one of those. Again, had no idea what we were doing. We knew we didn’t want to pay a property manager, 35 to 40% of our gross income. We knew there was a way to manage it ourselves from three hours away. We just had to figure out what that was. We figured all of that out, you know, lots of stumbling and figuring out it ended up working really well for us scaled that one property to five cabins in the Smokies within about a year and a half, five years later, we’ve used all of that income to go buy weather more traditional long-term real estate investments.

We’ve got a bunch of single families duplexes. We’ve got three 12 units and a 26 unit. We also, so of the 96 doors, we have eight of them are short-term rentals. And that’s about the gist of it. And I started the short-term shop on our second short-term rental investment because I kind of realized there weren’t any agents in that marketplace that could answer our questions about return on investment and remote self-management and how much should this property make. There was nobody who could really answer that. So I became that agent and bridge that gap.

And now the short-term shop is in six markets soon to be seven. And we have helped over 4,000 investors buy cashflowing short-term rental assets,

Speaker 0 (5m 42s): Right? So in terms of the short, short term rental aspect of things, so you get into this space and only a few years ago, it seemed like there was only one or two players in that space in terms of whether you’re using Airbnb or different things to actually rent out the space. But when you’re going in to look at at short-term rental properties, what, what type of things are you looking at off the hop in terms of, in terms of, if something qualifies as a good short-term rental,

Speaker 1 (6m 8s): The market is going to be the most important thing. So we look for areas we specifically invest in and then also work as agents in areas where that I call mature vacation rental market. So these are areas that people have been coming to stay on vacation and renting cabins, condos, beach houses, rather than hotels for decades and decades. So these are areas that are very safe for that regulations wise. These are areas that the cities and counties figured out how to monetize short-term rentals through a small local occupancy tax decades and decades ago.

So the regulations are very established. So we focus on those types of markets rather than Metro markets, just because with Metro markets, there’s a lot of industry outside of tourism, which means there’s a lot of primary homeowners, also a lot of hotels. So between hotels and then primary homeowners who don’t want you coming into their neighborhood and opening up a mini hotel next door to them where they’re trying to raise their kids. It just is a recipe for a lot of change in descent dissension. So we try to focus on those regional drivable, true vacation rental markets.

Speaker 0 (7m 17s): And in terms of the vacation rental investing, as opposed to just somebody on Airbnb, is there a distinction or do you make a distinction between that?

Speaker 1 (7m 27s): I do. Yeah. So a lot of people will I call Airbnb is just there any short-term rental property, anywhere in the country, a vacation rental is going to be a property in one of those vacation markets where pretty much, I would say 90% of the real estate in those markets are short term rentals. Like the smoky mountains in Tennessee, the Emerald coast and Florida, which is destined Panama city beach. I mean, you know, there’s tons of areas that, you know, anybody in any of the region, any of the regions of the country can kind of think, oh yeah, that I know like Aspen.

So things like that.

Speaker 0 (8m 1s): And in terms of, so when you go out to buy these properties on the short term side of things, is there a little bit of a different approach you take in terms of financing, you know, compared to multi-family or even single family homes.

Speaker 1 (8m 14s): Yeah. So if you are buying the, one of the cool things about buying short-term rentals is that they are also vacation homes. So if you are buying a vacation home that you plan to rent out, when you’re not there, you can get what is called a 10% down, a vacation home, or sometimes it’s called a second home loan and 10% down, you know, typically you have to put 20 to 25% down on an investment property, but a property that you plan to vacation in, I think the Fannie Freddie rule right now is 14 days out of the year.

You have to stay there. So all of those 14 days you are allowed to rent that out. So you can utilize that 10% down, so lower down payment, lower interest rate, and you can have one per market. So you can have one in Florida, you can have one in Tennessee. So it’s a really cool way for people to be able to get in for less money. And then also be able to scale more quickly. Yeah,

Speaker 0 (9m 7s): For sure. One thing, I mean, I’m sure people that have looked into this area, whether they’re in real estate or not one of the big things, at least for me, has been this idea of management of these properties. Right. You know, for us, when we think of like, longer-term, whether it’s commercial or residential management, you have this, these companies that take a certain percentage usually off of gross or effective rent. And this seems like a lot more time intensive in terms of turnover, people coming in and coming out. So how does, how do you approach management and how is it different than say traditional rental properties?

Speaker 1 (9m 39s): So I will say for my long-term rentals, every single one of those is with the property manager. That’s an entirely different beast property management in a long-term space. Yes, I’m all for it, but in the short term space. So the way that prices are right now, and this is by no means a metric to measure anything with real estate investing. It’s just a very loose rule of film, observation that right now, the way prices are typically in the markets that we’re in, people are netting after their mortgage, after all their expenses, anywhere between 35 and 45% of their gross.

If you have a traditional management company managing this and 35% is the average amount they charge, you might be breaking even, or possibly losing money right out of the gate. So as there have been more self managers coming on the scene, and not most people that are buying short-term rentals nowadays are self managing there’s tons and tons of technology to help you do that. The biggest one is a group of platforms called channel managers, and they automate a lot of the process for you.

They sync with your cleaners, Google calendar or icon or whatever they may be using and let them know automate the scheduling of the cleanings, automate a lot of the communication for between you and the guests. So you’re not having to just cause when I first started, you had to just a question would come in, you’d have to go answer it. And you’d have to answer that same question a hundred times when every single person did that, but now it automatically sends templated messages back so that you’re not having to do a lot of that stuff manually.

Speaker 0 (11m 16s): Okay. So it seems like they’ve, they’ve streamlined quite a bit of it, but that, that seems like a pretty hefty management fee for these short-term short-term companies.

Speaker 1 (11m 24s): Yeah. Yeah. So I guess that kind of stems from, you know, back to say 2000 and earlier there weren’t, BRBO Airbnb, those weren’t in existence just yet. Maybe some form of them were, but they weren’t widely used and areas like the ones that I’ve talked about, there were still real estate there. People were still coming in vacationing to these places, but the owners who owned properties in those markets, if they wanted to put a dent in their expenses at all, they were forced to use these local property managers.

So they just found that, Hey, there is nobody but us, so we can charge these exorbitant amounts or they can just, you know, have to pay their own expenses. So I think that just came around from there kind of being a monopoly on that.

Speaker 0 (12m 8s): Yeah. So is there, is there a middle ground, like you said, there’s these systems in place in, you know, maybe not having a full-time manager, but also not wanting to be there for every call for every issue that somebody has in, in a vacation home. Is there, are there systems where you have something resembling a middle ground between those two?

Speaker 1 (12m 25s): What most people do when they have over five properties would be to hire a, a VA, a virtual assistant don’t know what that is. We have a VA for ours. There is something in Airbnb called co-hosting where you can hire someone else who owns properties. If you’re going to go out of town and you just don’t want to be gotten a hold of for a week or two, that you can hire them and it will allow them to log onto your account and, you know, handle all that business for you during that specific time. So there’s, there’s some ways around it, for sure.

Speaker 0 (12m 57s): So talked a little bit about the selection process. It’s highly driven by market in terms of the actual, the properties themselves say you’ve selected the market, you have three or four properties, you’re comparing them to each other. What kind of metrics do you use in terms of underwriting these properties?

Speaker 1 (13m 14s): So if there, if I’m looking at three properties and they’re all the same size and similar amenities and good locations, I use what we at the short term shop called the enemy method. So the enemy method is, and let me back up just a little bit. There are tools you can use. Data-wise like air DNA to see how the properties in that neighborhood have been performing. But what the computer can’t tell you about how the performance of the properties are, is the, the different amenities, the intangible items, that data doesn’t show you like does one property have a pool and the other one does not have a pool.

A is one really, really beautiful and updated. And the other one’s kind of falling apart. You can’t really tell just from the data. So we use the enemy method, which is, if you’re looking at a property, you get on the booking platforms, Airbnb and BRBO, and look at the properties around you, your enemies, and see, okay, this property is about the same size as me. I can improve on this property here. They have bad pictures. This property doesn’t have a pool. The one I want to buy has a pool and you can kind of by using the data and the enemy method, figure out where you should be.

Speaker 0 (14m 24s): Okay. Right on. And in terms of actual the metrics side of things, cause you do you know, other than short-term rentals, do you use a hard and fast rule in terms of, you know, we’re looking for this type of internal rate of return or this type of annual growth rate, or is it more so look at cashflow as, as maybe a percentage of your gross income.

Speaker 1 (14m 44s): That’s a really good question. So I use gross annual income to, to analyze everything monthly doesn’t really work because of seasonality. And it’s really difficult to calculate a net number because the success of a property is so dependent on the way it’s managed and not necessarily the property itself, but we do look for a minimum of a 15% cash on cash return, really kind of more like 20, but that’s kind of, we’re looking for, you know, if it’s 20 or better, we’re buying it if it’s 15, but it can be improved, then we’re looking at that as well.

Speaker 0 (15m 20s): Yeah. And you know what, that’s a, it’s a good point in terms of the, the seasonality of these rental properties. Are there areas that you won’t invest specifically because of the seasonalities regarding weather or is it just more, more so the seasonality of that particular tourist tourism market?

Speaker 1 (15m 38s): It just depends. So I own properties in the mountains and I also own several beach properties. And when we bought first bought at the beach coming from a mountain experience, we were a little concerned about the seasonality of a beach market, but we found after our first one that our four bedroom beach property performed really, really similarly on an annual basis to our four bedroom mountain property. But whereas the mountain property made all of its money between probably March and December and just slow down a little bit in January and February, the beach property is between March and October.

So you do have those few months at the end of the year where you’re just going to be booked here and there, we were really worried about that, but it was kind of a nice little break and on an annual basis, the income was almost the same. So it’s like, you get a little break, like a summer break, but you know, over the holidays,

Speaker 0 (16m 28s): Like an ice cream shop. Yeah. That’s cool. So in terms of the, the, like, given the fact that these are predominantly in vacation areas, so like you said before, most likely the regulatory framework is going to be, you know, it’s going to be there or is going to have the ability to have short-term rentals. Is there anything else you would still say to people whether it’s HOA or any rules within a building that you would still say, these are the things you got to make sure you check prior to purchasing, just make sure that you can do short-term rentals or other things maybe that, that they wouldn’t have thought of.

Or are there any tips or advice you’d give on that end?

Speaker 1 (17m 4s): Yeah. So after you checked the city and county-wide regulations as a whole, you want to check and make sure that there’s not any zonings that don’t allow short-term rentals. So even though the markets that we’re in are really, really friendly towards short-term rentals, there are still a very few small little geographical areas that they don’t allow it to preserve primary home ownership for the people who actually live there. Then you want to check hos because every now and then you’re going to find one in a resort area that is specifically for only second homeowners.

They do not want any renters so that, so you want to go city and county and then like say inside the city limits zoning, and then you want to go HOA.

Speaker 0 (17m 45s): Okay. No, that makes sense. Just because I’m, you know, I’m in the city here, I think to your point of Metro, like whether you’re in a city that’s popularly nursery, densely populated with apartments or condos, a lot of times the boards or whoever runs them will have something that basically completely prohibits short-term rentals. So it makes sense that if you went for, rather than just Metro rentals, but you’re going to actually season markets that expect that, that you’d have lighter regulations there, if any, at all, exactly.

Right on. Okay. So Avery, can you talk a little bit about, so you’ve, you’ve done short-term rentals. This is part of the business that you have right now, before we get to the shop. I’m just curious, the other properties that you bought, what was that you branching out from short-term rentals or did you buy those assets prior? What, what has that experience been like for you from an investor standpoint?

Speaker 1 (18m 36s): Yeah, so I, even though I bought mostly short-term rentals at the beginning of my investing career, it was never the goal to own only short-term rentals. I am not by any means saying that that is the right and only way to do things. Some people do. People ask me all the time. Well, if short-term rentals are so great, why do you have so many long-terms because the goal for me was to generate cashflow quickly so that I could go buy more passive assets, which is exactly what we’ve done. So whether you want to use that cashflow to go buy more short terms or buy more passive assets, that’s totally up to you.

And that’s the beauty of real estate investing. So for me, the goal was to buy more passive assets and that’s what we’ve done.

Speaker 0 (19m 14s): And what would be a, maybe you could talk through a couple of the types of assets that you buy now, you know, the last one or two assets, what, what type of space or those are vertical, are those in?

Speaker 1 (19m 27s): So I do not recommend that you do what I’m doing right this second, but this is what we’re doing. It’s working really well for us. I recommend that you focus on one thing at a time, but we have been buying multi-units in a market in the Midwest. That’s working really well for us. So we have some great deal flow going there. And then also we have a market in the Southeast where we focus on value, add single families, maybe duplexes, not a lot of duplexes anymore. So we have both of those trains kind of rolling at the same time.

Speaker 0 (19m 56s): Very cool. Now the, the company itself that you started for the short-term rentals, the short-term shop. So is that, is that you’re a, you’re an agent by trade, is that right? Yes.

Speaker 1 (20m 7s): Yes. So we are a real estate agency. We are brokered by exp. I have to say that or else I get in trouble, but I don’t do the whole multi-level thing. That’s annoying, but we’re in six markets right now. So we’re in the smoky mountains in Tennessee, the Emerald coast and Florida forgotten coast in Florida, the Disney market in Florida, blue Ridge, Georgia, and Gulf shores, Alabama. We are adding crystal beach, Texas next week. And what we do is we work only with short term rental investors. So we don’t even take any other types of clients and for our buyer clients, if you choose to use us as your agents in those markets, we’re all very, obviously I train all of my agents to learn how to analyze these things.

Most of them are short-term rental investors themselves. But if you choose to use us as your buyer’s agents in any of those markets, we have a whole back end training program where we teach you everything that you need to know from getting your Airbnb. And BRBO listing set up to all the automation tools and the tips and the tricks to streamline things all the way down to helping you source your cleaners, handyman vendors, boots on the ground. So if you come to us, not only are we going to get you the house, we are going to make sure that you’re successful with it. So that’s what we do.

Speaker 0 (21m 14s): Very cool in terms of the out of state, you know, or for the Canadians out of province investing. I imagine most of the people that are investing in vacation rentals don’t live where their, where their investments are. So in terms of that complexity, how is that dealt with? Is it a non-issue? Is it something you need to put systems in place? What’s your experience been with that?

Speaker 1 (21m 37s): So for us, we have always done a ton of videos, showings, lots of videos, and you can’t, it’s true. Like you can’t always live in the best place to invest in any certain type of real estate. So if you are going to invest out of state, I do recommend reading David Green’s book about out of a long distance real estate investing. That’s a really good one because you do have to build a team. You have to vet your team remotely, and you have to make sure that you are working with the right people.

When you’re, I know a lot of people that listen to a lot of real estate investing podcasts are trying to work with like a hundred agents. You really need to find the agent that knows what they’re doing, or at least the top two or three, and not just go work with everybody who responds to you. I see that a lot now, especially as the market has gotten really, really tight that people will, like, I had some money who I sent him an off-market listing that I had, that I w it wasn’t listed yet. And he said, oh, no, I think I’m gonna pass on this. And then I put it on the market like a week or two later.

And he offered on it with another agent from another town. That’s not even in, not even in the market, they didn’t even have access to the right MLS. So don’t do that because you want to get, you know, work with the top agent or two that work in the space that are going to be working for you in the market that have the most relationships either with past buyers. So people who own things who might be wanting to sell things soon, that’s how you will get stuff off market. And also the agents who have the best relationships with all the other agents in the market, because that is also a good source for off-market deals.

Speaker 0 (23m 14s): Yeah, for sure. And I’m assuming that your brokerage will also assist know downstream in terms of the investment. And, and by that, I mean, putting them in contact with, with a broker or a mortgage broker for financing of these deals, I’m sure you have some preferred vendors that you deal with in specific areas for these types of properties.

Speaker 1 (23m 31s): We do. We actually also just started a mortgage arm called the mortgage shop because we were overwhelming so many different lenders and brokerages. So we just started our own to help our clients. And we focus while can do, you know, regular, if you want to buy a house with us, whatever, but we focus exclusively on in are not explicitly, we’re not allowed to, but we focus mainly on investors, especially short-term rental investors with our mortgage products

Speaker 0 (24m 2s): In terms of the last 24 months now, which is crazy to think that way, there’s obviously been an impact on the economy, on a rental properties in general, hoteling, tourism. What’s your experience been like over that period of time, just with, you know, with the pandemic, with lockdowns and have, have you, you know, lessons learned have, have there been things that, you know, perhaps without the pandemic you wouldn’t have got into or, or have kind of moved the business towards?

Speaker 1 (24m 31s): So I will say that what we thought was going to happen at the beginning of the pandemic was the opposite of what actually happened. So the beginning of the pandemic, when they shut everything down and everyone short-term rental calendars were wiped clean, we thought, oh, crap, there go there short-terms, there it is. It’s happened. And after two weeks, when everybody, you know, got off the couch and stop watching tiger king and things opened back up the tourism and the markets that we’re in, like people just busted the doors down, everybody was dying to get out of their houses and that our short term side of our business boomed, whereas it was actually our longterm side that we had to worry about with the eviction moratoriums.

And that’s just not anything that at the beginning of COVID week that never crossed our minds. We just thought, oh, people are going to stop going on vacation. Well, actually the opposite happened. So our short term side of our investments has really, really boomed. And luckily we only had to do two evictions, so it wasn’t too bad. And those people were problems well before COVID, but we, we just happened to be in the right place, right time with the short-term rentals and the COVID

Speaker 0 (25m 45s): Right on in terms of the market going forward, then, you know, let’s say the next one to two years in terms of investing for you. I know you mentioned that you’re doing a lot of different things with investing. Is there a specific asset class specific areas that you’re you’re looking at or that you like?

Speaker 1 (26m 1s): So it’s just so hard to find deals now that I’ve, I’ve got my eye always on the short-term markets that we’re in and then the Midwestern market that we’re in for the multis and then a few different Southeastern towns that we’ve invested in over the past few years for the single families and duplexes. It’s just so hard to say because a lot of people think, oh my gosh, we’re in a bubble, everything’s going to the bottom’s going to fall out. But then part of me feels that way. But then the other part of me is like, well, there is such a housing shortage because of all of that construction that did not happen between 2008.

And now that I don’t know how long it’s going to take us to get back to equilibrium to where it is, where things more normal, and it’s easier to get deals again. And people are able to actually buy things without 10, 15 offers. So it’s just really hard to say, I’m, I’m picking things up as long as they make sense. I’m, I’m steadily grabbing what I can just because it does kind of feel like this might not go back down. It might continue to be really difficult for primary homeowners to buy. Let me know. Great example of that first house that I bought in Nashville.

I just sold that. I listed it a little bit high because that was 10 31 exchanging I had a hedge fund come in and offer me $40,000 over asking cash. I think, have any other offers? I didn’t have multiple offers. There was no reason to offer that much 40,000 cash, no inspection closed it. And that kind of stuff is I think, going to continue to happen in Metro areas like that. And, you know, it’s just really hard for the typical home buyer to be able to compete with.

Speaker 0 (27m 37s): Absolutely. I mean, we see it just on the commercial side, it’s the same situation for at least on the apartment and industrial as well, where, you know, there’s, if it’s a good property in a good market, you know, you can expect five to 10 on, on bid date, you have five to 10 people competing. I’m sure for, you know, markets that you’re around, it’s a similar situation in terms of the, so on that, on that end on the brokerage end, is this something that, I mean, when you don’t talk to agents or brokers, it’s one of those things where if you talk to them about fully being a hundred percent investor, it’s always just so easy to continue to be a broker, but you also have the, the shop will you be as hands-on going forward or is the goal to, to pretty much be on kind of the, the ownership or investment side down the road?

Speaker 1 (28m 25s): I’ll probably stay pretty hands-on with it. It’s just, it made such a difference in mine and my husband’s lives that we were able to figure out how to do this and how to self-manage. And it’s really rewarding because I’m 33, I’m nowhere near being able to retire and just, I mean, I can retire, but my brain cannot retire. I can’t just sit around and deteriorate. So it really is rewarding to help other families transition the way we did from being, you know, I, I was making $37,000 a year and we get emails here and there from clients who were like, oh, you know, it allowed one parent to be able to stay home with the kids, or it allowed one person to stop working to take care of their elderly parent.

And it’s that kind of stuff that it can be a really life-changing thing. You know, two or three short-term rentals is, oh, like over a hundred thousand dollars salary in some cases that somebody might never have achieved, just climbing up the corporate ladder. I mean, I know I’d still be waiting on my $10,000 raise to make $50,000 a year. So it’s really rewarding to help other people do that.

Speaker 0 (29m 35s): Yeah, for sure. I just curious, you said that one of the properties was 10 31 exchanging. I was just looking on, on TV for those that don’t know, that would be a like unkind asset where you sell one asset and you, I can’t remember what the amount of time is, but you purchase a likened kind of asset and you defer the taxes just for us Canadians up here. I heard that it is possible. You guys are going to be having, I know there’s some, there’s some talk about getting rid of the 10 31 exchange. Is that real or is it just more of, you know, just talk,

Speaker 1 (30m 4s): I think it’s just talk, I think the worst it’ll be is that maybe you cannot defer a hundred percent of the taxes. Maybe you can only defer 80 or, or, you know, some other percentage, but yeah, I think that was just something that was big talk during the election. I don’t, I just, I don’t see that going away. We’ve had it. I think I’m going to get the year wrong, but I think it’s been around in the U S since the twenties or thirties. So it’s made it through this many presidents so far think it will probably continue in at least some form or fashion through the next few, hopefully.

Speaker 0 (30m 37s): Yeah, it is a it’s something that would be, it’d be great to have here because it just, the, the actual frequency of trading happens. I think just that it’s a huge benefit. Being able to actually transfer and move out to properties and have somebody new, put more money into properties on that note, I’d say about 55, 60% of our audience is, is Canadian, or it’s close to half and half Canadian and us with the balance overseas, in terms of somebody that’s looking into buying a vacation rental property, say they come to you, but they live in Vancouver or they live in Montreal.

You do, you deal with people investing out of, out of the country into vacation rentals and is the approach different? If so,

Speaker 1 (31m 17s): We do, we get a fair amount of overseas. Investors of the financing is a little different because there are very few lenders and brokerages who will work with truly, can’t think of the word with Canadians basically, unless you have like a, a green card or a social security number or some specific type of work visa. So we have a few of those, but other than getting past the financing part, it’s really very, very similar.

Speaker 0 (31m 42s): And would there be a benefit to if you have a partner that is an American or US-based partner in terms of the financing, like my thinking would be, you know, we have a number of investors that will have colleagues or have people that they will invest with better Americans, maybe that’s you just organize that through the, you know, the financing aspect happens through an entity maybe that you both create or something to that extent,

Speaker 1 (32m 5s): That would definitely be easier because having an American partner would open you up to a lot more options in terms of financing. So if you could form some sort of LLC or entity with them and then do it that way, I think that would probably be the easiest route.

Speaker 0 (32m 20s): And as per the usual, a disclaimer, we are not giving any legal or accounting advice, but Avery, we do something a little bit, sorry. We do something at the end of the show with every guests. It’s a four questions I want to be mindful of your time. So maybe we could get into that, but we do. I just like for you to just let listeners know if, if they are interested in that aspect, number one, the short term rental vacation rentals through your company, what would be the best route to, to kind of get, get to you?

Speaker 1 (32m 55s): Yes, go right to our website, the short-term shop.com. There’s a little button right in the middle that says schedule a consultation. That’s the best way to do it.

Speaker 0 (33m 2s): Okay. Sounds good. And if you’re good to go, I’ll I’ll log these, these questions that, yeah. Okay. Okay. What’s something that you know now in your real estate career, you wish you would’ve known when you first started out.

Speaker 1 (33m 16s): Oh, I, I wish I would’ve known. So when I was 19 20, 21, I was going to university of Texas. I lived in Austin, was bartending, downtown making great money. And a lot of my older friends who were bartending with me were buying these 70, $80,000 houses on the east side of Austin. And at the time I was like, well, if I’m not going to buy something impressive, like my parents’ house and why would I buy a house? Why do I want to buy one of these dinky little houses? Well, now those dinky little houses are worth a million dollars. And if I would have just done that and not been a snob about what, what was worth buying that, then I would have had a headstart on, on everything.

So I wish I would’ve done that differently.

Speaker 0 (33m 57s): I had a, I had somebody on the show recently said the best time to buy something as a hundred years ago, the next best time is now. So I was like, that’s pretty good. Tell that to clients. Okay. Question number two. What is your view on mentorship for people that are older in our industry, or even people getting into our inter industry

Speaker 1 (34m 18s): Go for it, especially in short term. I think there are a lot of people you really have to vet your mentors wisely. So what I’ve seen with short term rentals and Airbnb is, and I’ve seen my own clients do it. They will buy one or two in a six month period. See all this money come rolling in. We call it green light syndrome. Cause you get a little green button, green light, every time somebody books with you, they start seeing all this money coming in and they realize that they can do it. And look at me, I have no training wheels and I’m driving this thing. And so then they go immediately start some sort of Airbnb academy and want to charge people thousands of dollars to teach them how to do it.

When they’ve only been doing it for three or four months, they haven’t even owned the property for a whole year yet. So while I think that mentorship and, you know, taking these online courses can be a really, really great way to learn. Just make sure that you do your research. Don’t just run off and pay a thousand bucks for everybody on the internet because not all mentors are created equal.

Speaker 0 (35m 15s): Yeah, for sure. A lot of gurus out there. Yeah. Okay. In terms of the, you, you know, you’ve been on the podcast circuit, are there one or two books or podcasts that are indispensable for you that you’d, you’d recommend to listeners

Speaker 1 (35m 31s): Bigger pockets podcast? Of course. And then I mentioned it earlier, but David Green’s long distance, real estate investing. I sent it to all my clients to read. So they kind of have a primer on because most of them were buying out of state with us. So he answers a lot of those questions that they ask us. So it’s really good. Good reading material.

Speaker 0 (35m 50s): Yeah. That’s been on my list for a long time. This the long distance one. So yeah, I’ll put a link to that as well. Okay. Last, last question. First car, make and model.

Speaker 1 (35m 60s): It was a yellow Jeep Wrangler,

Speaker 0 (36m 3s): Austin, Texas. How could I have guessed that?

Speaker 1 (36m 8s): I have a purple one. Now I have a purple Jeep Wrangler now.

Speaker 0 (36m 12s): Yeah. They’ve come a long way right on. Okay. So you’ve, you’ve connected people to where they can reach out to you for anything else in terms of, you know, where you’re, where you’re talking podcasts, you know, is, is the website, is that okay or other social media that you’d like to plug that people can, can reach out to

Speaker 1 (36m 32s): Instagram and Facebook? All of that is posted in both of those places. And Instagram is at the short-term shop and Facebook is slash the short-term shop.

Speaker 0 (36m 43s): My guest today has been Avery, Carl Avery. Thanks for being part of working capital. Thank

Speaker 1 (36m 48s): You so much for having me.

Speaker 0 (36m 57s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I’m your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

Transcript

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Speaker 0 (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you’re looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let’s build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jessica galley and you’re listening to working capital. My special guest today is Avery Carl through strategic investing in short-term rental properties and mature vacation rental markets.

She was a millionaire by 31 years old. She now owns over 24 properties and is the CEO and founder of short-term rental shop a real estate team that helps investors acquire short-term rental properties in the most recession resistant markets and trains them on the methods that led her out of the corporate rat race and into financial freedom. Avery, how you doing?

Speaker 1 (51s): Pretty good. How are you? And actually we’re at 96 doors. Now that, that outdated. Sorry.

Speaker 0 (57s): I kind of feel like that. That’s great. That’s good to hear. We were just saying before the show that I was looking through some old emails and it looks like we both spoke at BiggerPockets conference so hard to believe now it’s 2019, but you’re going to be talking it’s this weekend. You’re going to be talking on short-term rentals.

Speaker 1 (1m 16s): Yes, yes. Again, as will you, but not on short term. So we’re, we’re doing it again

Speaker 0 (1m 21s): Right on. Well, that’s great to hear. Well, thanks again for coming on to the show. I think our listeners will get a lot out of this. I really want it to have an episode where we can talk a little bit about your background and how you got into real estate, but also specifically talk a little bit about the short-term rental market for people that, you know, they know what Airbnb is, but perhaps don’t really know how people do invest in this market. And you know, also what the impact has been over the last 12 to 24 months in the short-term space. So maybe to kick it off, you could give our listeners a little bit of your background, you know, where you started and, and how you got into real estate,

Speaker 1 (1m 59s): Happy to do it. So I started in real estate kind of by accident. So my husband and I moved from New York city to Nashville in 2013. And we both had corporate music, jobs, music business, and we weren’t didn’t know anything about real estate or real estate investment. We knew we wanted to buy a house to live in because you can’t really do that in New York, at least not on the salaries we were on. And so the real estate agent that we had at the time was really trying to direct us to this really fast appreciating hipster area of Nashville called east Nashville.

And we said, eh, we are sick of neighbors. We came here from Brooklyn, we moved to Tennessee to be out in the country. So we want to buy something out in the country. So about something out in the country. And we thought, well, you know what, maybe there’s something to that fast appreciation. And people are selling their houses two years later for a hundred thousand dollars more. And we decided we wanted to do that, which is not the way to invest by the way. But we thought at the time, well, you know, maybe we can keep this house and maybe buy one more sometime and sell it in.

You know, however old our kids are at the time, we didn’t have any kids. So when our future kids go to college, we can sell those and pay for their college. And we’ll be like so smart and cool and savvy and not have to pay for that. And so we did buy a house in that area. And luckily that was a really, really great investment. We didn’t know it at the time that one, the mortgage was 650 bucks a month. We were renting it for 1500 a month. And after we got a few rent checks, we thought, okay, we really want to get into this. We’re going to build a business out of this.

So then we did all the educating ourselves piece that most people do before they buy a property. And we started reading all the books and listening to every podcast imaginable and we thought, okay, well we have one more down payment left. So what can we buy? That’s going to make the most amount of money, the fastest so that we can scale our portfolio as quickly as possible. So we landed on short-term rentals and we didn’t want to do it in Nashville rear living at the time because we thought that the regulations in Nashville are crazy. They’re changing all the time. It’s just not really somewhere. That is a safe place to invest regulation-wise.

So we thought, well, where can we go? That it’s the normal thing for people to go rent a house that somebody has to own instead of a hotel. So we landed on the smokey mountains, which is a few hours east of Nashville. Everybody goes there and stays in cabins on vacation, long story short, we bought one of those. Again, had no idea what we were doing. We knew we didn’t want to pay a property manager, 35 to 40% of our gross income. We knew there was a way to manage it ourselves from three hours away. We just had to figure out what that was. We figured all of that out, you know, lots of stumbling and figuring out it ended up working really well for us scaled that one property to five cabins in the Smokies within about a year and a half, five years later, we’ve used all of that income to go buy weather more traditional long-term real estate investments.

We’ve got a bunch of single families duplexes. We’ve got three 12 units and a 26 unit. We also, so of the 96 doors, we have eight of them are short-term rentals. And that’s about the gist of it. And I started the short-term shop on our second short-term rental investment because I kind of realized there weren’t any agents in that marketplace that could answer our questions about return on investment and remote self-management and how much should this property make. There was nobody who could really answer that. So I became that agent and bridge that gap.

And now the short-term shop is in six markets soon to be seven. And we have helped over 4,000 investors buy cashflowing short-term rental assets,

Speaker 0 (5m 42s): Right? So in terms of the short, short term rental aspect of things, so you get into this space and only a few years ago, it seemed like there was only one or two players in that space in terms of whether you’re using Airbnb or different things to actually rent out the space. But when you’re going in to look at at short-term rental properties, what, what type of things are you looking at off the hop in terms of, in terms of, if something qualifies as a good short-term rental,

Speaker 1 (6m 8s): The market is going to be the most important thing. So we look for areas we specifically invest in and then also work as agents in areas where that I call mature vacation rental market. So these are areas that people have been coming to stay on vacation and renting cabins, condos, beach houses, rather than hotels for decades and decades. So these are areas that are very safe for that regulations wise. These are areas that the cities and counties figured out how to monetize short-term rentals through a small local occupancy tax decades and decades ago.

So the regulations are very established. So we focus on those types of markets rather than Metro markets, just because with Metro markets, there’s a lot of industry outside of tourism, which means there’s a lot of primary homeowners, also a lot of hotels. So between hotels and then primary homeowners who don’t want you coming into their neighborhood and opening up a mini hotel next door to them where they’re trying to raise their kids. It just is a recipe for a lot of change in descent dissension. So we try to focus on those regional drivable, true vacation rental markets.

Speaker 0 (7m 17s): And in terms of the vacation rental investing, as opposed to just somebody on Airbnb, is there a distinction or do you make a distinction between that?

Speaker 1 (7m 27s): I do. Yeah. So a lot of people will I call Airbnb is just there any short-term rental property, anywhere in the country, a vacation rental is going to be a property in one of those vacation markets where pretty much, I would say 90% of the real estate in those markets are short term rentals. Like the smoky mountains in Tennessee, the Emerald coast and Florida, which is destined Panama city beach. I mean, you know, there’s tons of areas that, you know, anybody in any of the region, any of the regions of the country can kind of think, oh yeah, that I know like Aspen.

So things like that.

Speaker 0 (8m 1s): And in terms of, so when you go out to buy these properties on the short term side of things, is there a little bit of a different approach you take in terms of financing, you know, compared to multi-family or even single family homes.

Speaker 1 (8m 14s): Yeah. So if you are buying the, one of the cool things about buying short-term rentals is that they are also vacation homes. So if you are buying a vacation home that you plan to rent out, when you’re not there, you can get what is called a 10% down, a vacation home, or sometimes it’s called a second home loan and 10% down, you know, typically you have to put 20 to 25% down on an investment property, but a property that you plan to vacation in, I think the Fannie Freddie rule right now is 14 days out of the year.

You have to stay there. So all of those 14 days you are allowed to rent that out. So you can utilize that 10% down, so lower down payment, lower interest rate, and you can have one per market. So you can have one in Florida, you can have one in Tennessee. So it’s a really cool way for people to be able to get in for less money. And then also be able to scale more quickly. Yeah,

Speaker 0 (9m 7s): For sure. One thing, I mean, I’m sure people that have looked into this area, whether they’re in real estate or not one of the big things, at least for me, has been this idea of management of these properties. Right. You know, for us, when we think of like, longer-term, whether it’s commercial or residential management, you have this, these companies that take a certain percentage usually off of gross or effective rent. And this seems like a lot more time intensive in terms of turnover, people coming in and coming out. So how does, how do you approach management and how is it different than say traditional rental properties?

Speaker 1 (9m 39s): So I will say for my long-term rentals, every single one of those is with the property manager. That’s an entirely different beast property management in a long-term space. Yes, I’m all for it, but in the short term space. So the way that prices are right now, and this is by no means a metric to measure anything with real estate investing. It’s just a very loose rule of film, observation that right now, the way prices are typically in the markets that we’re in, people are netting after their mortgage, after all their expenses, anywhere between 35 and 45% of their gross.

If you have a traditional management company managing this and 35% is the average amount they charge, you might be breaking even, or possibly losing money right out of the gate. So as there have been more self managers coming on the scene, and not most people that are buying short-term rentals nowadays are self managing there’s tons and tons of technology to help you do that. The biggest one is a group of platforms called channel managers, and they automate a lot of the process for you.

They sync with your cleaners, Google calendar or icon or whatever they may be using and let them know automate the scheduling of the cleanings, automate a lot of the communication for between you and the guests. So you’re not having to just cause when I first started, you had to just a question would come in, you’d have to go answer it. And you’d have to answer that same question a hundred times when every single person did that, but now it automatically sends templated messages back so that you’re not having to do a lot of that stuff manually.

Speaker 0 (11m 16s): Okay. So it seems like they’ve, they’ve streamlined quite a bit of it, but that, that seems like a pretty hefty management fee for these short-term short-term companies.

Speaker 1 (11m 24s): Yeah. Yeah. So I guess that kind of stems from, you know, back to say 2000 and earlier there weren’t, BRBO Airbnb, those weren’t in existence just yet. Maybe some form of them were, but they weren’t widely used and areas like the ones that I’ve talked about, there were still real estate there. People were still coming in vacationing to these places, but the owners who owned properties in those markets, if they wanted to put a dent in their expenses at all, they were forced to use these local property managers.

So they just found that, Hey, there is nobody but us, so we can charge these exorbitant amounts or they can just, you know, have to pay their own expenses. So I think that just came around from there kind of being a monopoly on that.

Speaker 0 (12m 8s): Yeah. So is there, is there a middle ground, like you said, there’s these systems in place in, you know, maybe not having a full-time manager, but also not wanting to be there for every call for every issue that somebody has in, in a vacation home. Is there, are there systems where you have something resembling a middle ground between those two?

Speaker 1 (12m 25s): What most people do when they have over five properties would be to hire a, a VA, a virtual assistant don’t know what that is. We have a VA for ours. There is something in Airbnb called co-hosting where you can hire someone else who owns properties. If you’re going to go out of town and you just don’t want to be gotten a hold of for a week or two, that you can hire them and it will allow them to log onto your account and, you know, handle all that business for you during that specific time. So there’s, there’s some ways around it, for sure.

Speaker 0 (12m 57s): So talked a little bit about the selection process. It’s highly driven by market in terms of the actual, the properties themselves say you’ve selected the market, you have three or four properties, you’re comparing them to each other. What kind of metrics do you use in terms of underwriting these properties?

Speaker 1 (13m 14s): So if there, if I’m looking at three properties and they’re all the same size and similar amenities and good locations, I use what we at the short term shop called the enemy method. So the enemy method is, and let me back up just a little bit. There are tools you can use. Data-wise like air DNA to see how the properties in that neighborhood have been performing. But what the computer can’t tell you about how the performance of the properties are, is the, the different amenities, the intangible items, that data doesn’t show you like does one property have a pool and the other one does not have a pool.

A is one really, really beautiful and updated. And the other one’s kind of falling apart. You can’t really tell just from the data. So we use the enemy method, which is, if you’re looking at a property, you get on the booking platforms, Airbnb and BRBO, and look at the properties around you, your enemies, and see, okay, this property is about the same size as me. I can improve on this property here. They have bad pictures. This property doesn’t have a pool. The one I want to buy has a pool and you can kind of by using the data and the enemy method, figure out where you should be.

Speaker 0 (14m 24s): Okay. Right on. And in terms of actual the metrics side of things, cause you do you know, other than short-term rentals, do you use a hard and fast rule in terms of, you know, we’re looking for this type of internal rate of return or this type of annual growth rate, or is it more so look at cashflow as, as maybe a percentage of your gross income.

Speaker 1 (14m 44s): That’s a really good question. So I use gross annual income to, to analyze everything monthly doesn’t really work because of seasonality. And it’s really difficult to calculate a net number because the success of a property is so dependent on the way it’s managed and not necessarily the property itself, but we do look for a minimum of a 15% cash on cash return, really kind of more like 20, but that’s kind of, we’re looking for, you know, if it’s 20 or better, we’re buying it if it’s 15, but it can be improved, then we’re looking at that as well.

Speaker 0 (15m 20s): Yeah. And you know what, that’s a, it’s a good point in terms of the, the seasonality of these rental properties. Are there areas that you won’t invest specifically because of the seasonalities regarding weather or is it just more, more so the seasonality of that particular tourist tourism market?

Speaker 1 (15m 38s): It just depends. So I own properties in the mountains and I also own several beach properties. And when we bought first bought at the beach coming from a mountain experience, we were a little concerned about the seasonality of a beach market, but we found after our first one that our four bedroom beach property performed really, really similarly on an annual basis to our four bedroom mountain property. But whereas the mountain property made all of its money between probably March and December and just slow down a little bit in January and February, the beach property is between March and October.

So you do have those few months at the end of the year where you’re just going to be booked here and there, we were really worried about that, but it was kind of a nice little break and on an annual basis, the income was almost the same. So it’s like, you get a little break, like a summer break, but you know, over the holidays,

Speaker 0 (16m 28s): Like an ice cream shop. Yeah. That’s cool. So in terms of the, the, like, given the fact that these are predominantly in vacation areas, so like you said before, most likely the regulatory framework is going to be, you know, it’s going to be there or is going to have the ability to have short-term rentals. Is there anything else you would still say to people whether it’s HOA or any rules within a building that you would still say, these are the things you got to make sure you check prior to purchasing, just make sure that you can do short-term rentals or other things maybe that, that they wouldn’t have thought of.

Or are there any tips or advice you’d give on that end?

Speaker 1 (17m 4s): Yeah. So after you checked the city and county-wide regulations as a whole, you want to check and make sure that there’s not any zonings that don’t allow short-term rentals. So even though the markets that we’re in are really, really friendly towards short-term rentals, there are still a very few small little geographical areas that they don’t allow it to preserve primary home ownership for the people who actually live there. Then you want to check hos because every now and then you’re going to find one in a resort area that is specifically for only second homeowners.

They do not want any renters so that, so you want to go city and county and then like say inside the city limits zoning, and then you want to go HOA.

Speaker 0 (17m 45s): Okay. No, that makes sense. Just because I’m, you know, I’m in the city here, I think to your point of Metro, like whether you’re in a city that’s popularly nursery, densely populated with apartments or condos, a lot of times the boards or whoever runs them will have something that basically completely prohibits short-term rentals. So it makes sense that if you went for, rather than just Metro rentals, but you’re going to actually season markets that expect that, that you’d have lighter regulations there, if any, at all, exactly.

Right on. Okay. So Avery, can you talk a little bit about, so you’ve, you’ve done short-term rentals. This is part of the business that you have right now, before we get to the shop. I’m just curious, the other properties that you bought, what was that you branching out from short-term rentals or did you buy those assets prior? What, what has that experience been like for you from an investor standpoint?

Speaker 1 (18m 36s): Yeah, so I, even though I bought mostly short-term rentals at the beginning of my investing career, it was never the goal to own only short-term rentals. I am not by any means saying that that is the right and only way to do things. Some people do. People ask me all the time. Well, if short-term rentals are so great, why do you have so many long-terms because the goal for me was to generate cashflow quickly so that I could go buy more passive assets, which is exactly what we’ve done. So whether you want to use that cashflow to go buy more short terms or buy more passive assets, that’s totally up to you.

And that’s the beauty of real estate investing. So for me, the goal was to buy more passive assets and that’s what we’ve done.

Speaker 0 (19m 14s): And what would be a, maybe you could talk through a couple of the types of assets that you buy now, you know, the last one or two assets, what, what type of space or those are vertical, are those in?

Speaker 1 (19m 27s): So I do not recommend that you do what I’m doing right this second, but this is what we’re doing. It’s working really well for us. I recommend that you focus on one thing at a time, but we have been buying multi-units in a market in the Midwest. That’s working really well for us. So we have some great deal flow going there. And then also we have a market in the Southeast where we focus on value, add single families, maybe duplexes, not a lot of duplexes anymore. So we have both of those trains kind of rolling at the same time.

Speaker 0 (19m 56s): Very cool. Now the, the company itself that you started for the short-term rentals, the short-term shop. So is that, is that you’re a, you’re an agent by trade, is that right? Yes.

Speaker 1 (20m 7s): Yes. So we are a real estate agency. We are brokered by exp. I have to say that or else I get in trouble, but I don’t do the whole multi-level thing. That’s annoying, but we’re in six markets right now. So we’re in the smoky mountains in Tennessee, the Emerald coast and Florida forgotten coast in Florida, the Disney market in Florida, blue Ridge, Georgia, and Gulf shores, Alabama. We are adding crystal beach, Texas next week. And what we do is we work only with short term rental investors. So we don’t even take any other types of clients and for our buyer clients, if you choose to use us as your agents in those markets, we’re all very, obviously I train all of my agents to learn how to analyze these things.

Most of them are short-term rental investors themselves. But if you choose to use us as your buyer’s agents in any of those markets, we have a whole back end training program where we teach you everything that you need to know from getting your Airbnb. And BRBO listing set up to all the automation tools and the tips and the tricks to streamline things all the way down to helping you source your cleaners, handyman vendors, boots on the ground. So if you come to us, not only are we going to get you the house, we are going to make sure that you’re successful with it. So that’s what we do.

Speaker 0 (21m 14s): Very cool in terms of the out of state, you know, or for the Canadians out of province investing. I imagine most of the people that are investing in vacation rentals don’t live where their, where their investments are. So in terms of that complexity, how is that dealt with? Is it a non-issue? Is it something you need to put systems in place? What’s your experience been with that?

Speaker 1 (21m 37s): So for us, we have always done a ton of videos, showings, lots of videos, and you can’t, it’s true. Like you can’t always live in the best place to invest in any certain type of real estate. So if you are going to invest out of state, I do recommend reading David Green’s book about out of a long distance real estate investing. That’s a really good one because you do have to build a team. You have to vet your team remotely, and you have to make sure that you are working with the right people.

When you’re, I know a lot of people that listen to a lot of real estate investing podcasts are trying to work with like a hundred agents. You really need to find the agent that knows what they’re doing, or at least the top two or three, and not just go work with everybody who responds to you. I see that a lot now, especially as the market has gotten really, really tight that people will, like, I had some money who I sent him an off-market listing that I had, that I w it wasn’t listed yet. And he said, oh, no, I think I’m gonna pass on this. And then I put it on the market like a week or two later.

And he offered on it with another agent from another town. That’s not even in, not even in the market, they didn’t even have access to the right MLS. So don’t do that because you want to get, you know, work with the top agent or two that work in the space that are going to be working for you in the market that have the most relationships either with past buyers. So people who own things who might be wanting to sell things soon, that’s how you will get stuff off market. And also the agents who have the best relationships with all the other agents in the market, because that is also a good source for off-market deals.

Speaker 0 (23m 14s): Yeah, for sure. And I’m assuming that your brokerage will also assist know downstream in terms of the investment. And, and by that, I mean, putting them in contact with, with a broker or a mortgage broker for financing of these deals, I’m sure you have some preferred vendors that you deal with in specific areas for these types of properties.

Speaker 1 (23m 31s): We do. We actually also just started a mortgage arm called the mortgage shop because we were overwhelming so many different lenders and brokerages. So we just started our own to help our clients. And we focus while can do, you know, regular, if you want to buy a house with us, whatever, but we focus exclusively on in are not explicitly, we’re not allowed to, but we focus mainly on investors, especially short-term rental investors with our mortgage products

Speaker 0 (24m 2s): In terms of the last 24 months now, which is crazy to think that way, there’s obviously been an impact on the economy, on a rental properties in general, hoteling, tourism. What’s your experience been like over that period of time, just with, you know, with the pandemic, with lockdowns and have, have you, you know, lessons learned have, have there been things that, you know, perhaps without the pandemic you wouldn’t have got into or, or have kind of moved the business towards?

Speaker 1 (24m 31s): So I will say that what we thought was going to happen at the beginning of the pandemic was the opposite of what actually happened. So the beginning of the pandemic, when they shut everything down and everyone short-term rental calendars were wiped clean, we thought, oh, crap, there go there short-terms, there it is. It’s happened. And after two weeks, when everybody, you know, got off the couch and stop watching tiger king and things opened back up the tourism and the markets that we’re in, like people just busted the doors down, everybody was dying to get out of their houses and that our short term side of our business boomed, whereas it was actually our longterm side that we had to worry about with the eviction moratoriums.

And that’s just not anything that at the beginning of COVID week that never crossed our minds. We just thought, oh, people are going to stop going on vacation. Well, actually the opposite happened. So our short term side of our investments has really, really boomed. And luckily we only had to do two evictions, so it wasn’t too bad. And those people were problems well before COVID, but we, we just happened to be in the right place, right time with the short-term rentals and the COVID

Speaker 0 (25m 45s): Right on in terms of the market going forward, then, you know, let’s say the next one to two years in terms of investing for you. I know you mentioned that you’re doing a lot of different things with investing. Is there a specific asset class specific areas that you’re you’re looking at or that you like?

Speaker 1 (26m 1s): So it’s just so hard to find deals now that I’ve, I’ve got my eye always on the short-term markets that we’re in and then the Midwestern market that we’re in for the multis and then a few different Southeastern towns that we’ve invested in over the past few years for the single families and duplexes. It’s just so hard to say because a lot of people think, oh my gosh, we’re in a bubble, everything’s going to the bottom’s going to fall out. But then part of me feels that way. But then the other part of me is like, well, there is such a housing shortage because of all of that construction that did not happen between 2008.

And now that I don’t know how long it’s going to take us to get back to equilibrium to where it is, where things more normal, and it’s easier to get deals again. And people are able to actually buy things without 10, 15 offers. So it’s just really hard to say, I’m, I’m picking things up as long as they make sense. I’m, I’m steadily grabbing what I can just because it does kind of feel like this might not go back down. It might continue to be really difficult for primary homeowners to buy. Let me know. Great example of that first house that I bought in Nashville.

I just sold that. I listed it a little bit high because that was 10 31 exchanging I had a hedge fund come in and offer me $40,000 over asking cash. I think, have any other offers? I didn’t have multiple offers. There was no reason to offer that much 40,000 cash, no inspection closed it. And that kind of stuff is I think, going to continue to happen in Metro areas like that. And, you know, it’s just really hard for the typical home buyer to be able to compete with.

Speaker 0 (27m 37s): Absolutely. I mean, we see it just on the commercial side, it’s the same situation for at least on the apartment and industrial as well, where, you know, there’s, if it’s a good property in a good market, you know, you can expect five to 10 on, on bid date, you have five to 10 people competing. I’m sure for, you know, markets that you’re around, it’s a similar situation in terms of the, so on that, on that end on the brokerage end, is this something that, I mean, when you don’t talk to agents or brokers, it’s one of those things where if you talk to them about fully being a hundred percent investor, it’s always just so easy to continue to be a broker, but you also have the, the shop will you be as hands-on going forward or is the goal to, to pretty much be on kind of the, the ownership or investment side down the road?

Speaker 1 (28m 25s): I’ll probably stay pretty hands-on with it. It’s just, it made such a difference in mine and my husband’s lives that we were able to figure out how to do this and how to self-manage. And it’s really rewarding because I’m 33, I’m nowhere near being able to retire and just, I mean, I can retire, but my brain cannot retire. I can’t just sit around and deteriorate. So it really is rewarding to help other families transition the way we did from being, you know, I, I was making $37,000 a year and we get emails here and there from clients who were like, oh, you know, it allowed one parent to be able to stay home with the kids, or it allowed one person to stop working to take care of their elderly parent.

And it’s that kind of stuff that it can be a really life-changing thing. You know, two or three short-term rentals is, oh, like over a hundred thousand dollars salary in some cases that somebody might never have achieved, just climbing up the corporate ladder. I mean, I know I’d still be waiting on my $10,000 raise to make $50,000 a year. So it’s really rewarding to help other people do that.

Speaker 0 (29m 35s): Yeah, for sure. I just curious, you said that one of the properties was 10 31 exchanging. I was just looking on, on TV for those that don’t know, that would be a like unkind asset where you sell one asset and you, I can’t remember what the amount of time is, but you purchase a likened kind of asset and you defer the taxes just for us Canadians up here. I heard that it is possible. You guys are going to be having, I know there’s some, there’s some talk about getting rid of the 10 31 exchange. Is that real or is it just more of, you know, just talk,

Speaker 1 (30m 4s): I think it’s just talk, I think the worst it’ll be is that maybe you cannot defer a hundred percent of the taxes. Maybe you can only defer 80 or, or, you know, some other percentage, but yeah, I think that was just something that was big talk during the election. I don’t, I just, I don’t see that going away. We’ve had it. I think I’m going to get the year wrong, but I think it’s been around in the U S since the twenties or thirties. So it’s made it through this many presidents so far think it will probably continue in at least some form or fashion through the next few, hopefully.

Speaker 0 (30m 37s): Yeah, it is a it’s something that would be, it’d be great to have here because it just, the, the actual frequency of trading happens. I think just that it’s a huge benefit. Being able to actually transfer and move out to properties and have somebody new, put more money into properties on that note, I’d say about 55, 60% of our audience is, is Canadian, or it’s close to half and half Canadian and us with the balance overseas, in terms of somebody that’s looking into buying a vacation rental property, say they come to you, but they live in Vancouver or they live in Montreal.

You do, you deal with people investing out of, out of the country into vacation rentals and is the approach different? If so,

Speaker 1 (31m 17s): We do, we get a fair amount of overseas. Investors of the financing is a little different because there are very few lenders and brokerages who will work with truly, can’t think of the word with Canadians basically, unless you have like a, a green card or a social security number or some specific type of work visa. So we have a few of those, but other than getting past the financing part, it’s really very, very similar.

Speaker 0 (31m 42s): And would there be a benefit to if you have a partner that is an American or US-based partner in terms of the financing, like my thinking would be, you know, we have a number of investors that will have colleagues or have people that they will invest with better Americans, maybe that’s you just organize that through the, you know, the financing aspect happens through an entity maybe that you both create or something to that extent,

Speaker 1 (32m 5s): That would definitely be easier because having an American partner would open you up to a lot more options in terms of financing. So if you could form some sort of LLC or entity with them and then do it that way, I think that would probably be the easiest route.

Speaker 0 (32m 20s): And as per the usual, a disclaimer, we are not giving any legal or accounting advice, but Avery, we do something a little bit, sorry. We do something at the end of the show with every guests. It’s a four questions I want to be mindful of your time. So maybe we could get into that, but we do. I just like for you to just let listeners know if, if they are interested in that aspect, number one, the short term rental vacation rentals through your company, what would be the best route to, to kind of get, get to you?

Speaker 1 (32m 55s): Yes, go right to our website, the short-term shop.com. There’s a little button right in the middle that says schedule a consultation. That’s the best way to do it.

Speaker 0 (33m 2s): Okay. Sounds good. And if you’re good to go, I’ll I’ll log these, these questions that, yeah. Okay. Okay. What’s something that you know now in your real estate career, you wish you would’ve known when you first started out.

Speaker 1 (33m 16s): Oh, I, I wish I would’ve known. So when I was 19 20, 21, I was going to university of Texas. I lived in Austin, was bartending, downtown making great money. And a lot of my older friends who were bartending with me were buying these 70, $80,000 houses on the east side of Austin. And at the time I was like, well, if I’m not going to buy something impressive, like my parents’ house and why would I buy a house? Why do I want to buy one of these dinky little houses? Well, now those dinky little houses are worth a million dollars. And if I would have just done that and not been a snob about what, what was worth buying that, then I would have had a headstart on, on everything.

So I wish I would’ve done that differently.

Speaker 0 (33m 57s): I had a, I had somebody on the show recently said the best time to buy something as a hundred years ago, the next best time is now. So I was like, that’s pretty good. Tell that to clients. Okay. Question number two. What is your view on mentorship for people that are older in our industry, or even people getting into our inter industry

Speaker 1 (34m 18s): Go for it, especially in short term. I think there are a lot of people you really have to vet your mentors wisely. So what I’ve seen with short term rentals and Airbnb is, and I’ve seen my own clients do it. They will buy one or two in a six month period. See all this money come rolling in. We call it green light syndrome. Cause you get a little green button, green light, every time somebody books with you, they start seeing all this money coming in and they realize that they can do it. And look at me, I have no training wheels and I’m driving this thing. And so then they go immediately start some sort of Airbnb academy and want to charge people thousands of dollars to teach them how to do it.

When they’ve only been doing it for three or four months, they haven’t even owned the property for a whole year yet. So while I think that mentorship and, you know, taking these online courses can be a really, really great way to learn. Just make sure that you do your research. Don’t just run off and pay a thousand bucks for everybody on the internet because not all mentors are created equal.

Speaker 0 (35m 15s): Yeah, for sure. A lot of gurus out there. Yeah. Okay. In terms of the, you, you know, you’ve been on the podcast circuit, are there one or two books or podcasts that are indispensable for you that you’d, you’d recommend to listeners

Speaker 1 (35m 31s): Bigger pockets podcast? Of course. And then I mentioned it earlier, but David Green’s long distance, real estate investing. I sent it to all my clients to read. So they kind of have a primer on because most of them were buying out of state with us. So he answers a lot of those questions that they ask us. So it’s really good. Good reading material.

Speaker 0 (35m 50s): Yeah. That’s been on my list for a long time. This the long distance one. So yeah, I’ll put a link to that as well. Okay. Last, last question. First car, make and model.

Speaker 1 (35m 60s): It was a yellow Jeep Wrangler,

Speaker 0 (36m 3s): Austin, Texas. How could I have guessed that?

Speaker 1 (36m 8s): I have a purple one. Now I have a purple Jeep Wrangler now.

Speaker 0 (36m 12s): Yeah. They’ve come a long way right on. Okay. So you’ve, you’ve connected people to where they can reach out to you for anything else in terms of, you know, where you’re, where you’re talking podcasts, you know, is, is the website, is that okay or other social media that you’d like to plug that people can, can reach out to

Speaker 1 (36m 32s): Instagram and Facebook? All of that is posted in both of those places. And Instagram is at the short-term shop and Facebook is slash the short-term shop.

Speaker 0 (36m 43s): My guest today has been Avery, Carl Avery. Thanks for being part of working capital. Thank

Speaker 1 (36m 48s): You so much for having me.

Speaker 0 (36m 57s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I’m your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.