Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Find Off-market Real Estate Deals by Smart Calling with Art Sobczak|EP33

Dec 23, 2020

In This Episode

Over the past 33 years. Art Sobczak has helped hundreds of thousands of sales pros–and those who didn’t consider themselves to be salespeople but needed to place calls– to get more of what they wanted by phone. His processes and techniques are known as conversational, real-world, non-salesy, non-cheesy, and get results.

He has delivered over 1700 training programs in almost all industries and types of sales applications, and he will research your business to address your type of calls.

He has authored five books, including “Smart Calling-Eliminate the Fear, Failure, and Rejection from Cold Calling,” which is on amazon’s list of the 20 Most Highly-Rated Sales Books of All Time.

In this episode we talked about:

  • Proven sales and cold calling techniques
  • The evolution of Smart Calling
  • The anatomy and steps of Smart Calling
  • Why phone cold calling is still in demand
  • Social Engineering for sales and Smart calling approach
  • And much MORE!


Resources and Links:

Smart Calling (book)

Connect with Art




Jesse (1s):

Hey everybody. This is Jesse Fragale. Before we started this episode, I just want to say thank you so much for everybody that keeps on listening, it really is amazing to me and I can’t. Thank you enough. What would really help us out is if you enjoy the show to go over to iTunes and leave us a five star review. Also, if you have a favorite episode, what would be great is if you could share it on social media, whether that’s Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn, anyways, enjoy the show. Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you’re looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let’s build that portfolio one square foot at a time.

Jesse (47s):

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, as usual, I have a special guest on the show today. Art sob check art over the past 30 years, art has helped salespeople’s say the right things to get through, get in and sell primarily using the phone. He’s a speaker trainer, author podcaster, and lifelong salesperson art received a lifetime achievement award from the American association of inside sales professionals. He has written five books and his flagship smart calling how to eliminate fear, failure and rejection from cold calling has just been released in its third edition and is the standard for individuals and companies worldwide to prospect effectively without quotations cold calling art. How are you doing today?

Art (1m 26s):

I am doing great, Jesse, thank you so much for having me on.

Jesse (1m 29s):

Well, I’m really excited to have you on smart calling is really where I became aware of your I’m basically aware of you and what you do. And in addition to that, your podcast, which was extremely helpful over the last few months as an investor and as in brokerage. So I thought our listeners really need to hear what you have to say. Cause I think now in 2020, especially we’re, we’re find that we’re using the phone again in kind of a renewed way that I’d like to talk to you about. So yeah, thanks for coming on. And I guess just as a background, what we’d like to do with our guests is talk a little bit about your background, how you came into the sales space and, and how you got started.

Art (2m 8s):

Yeah, absolutely. So it’s interesting that as you mentioned at 2020, everybody’s pretty much forced to be using the phone since we’re not allowed to go out there, or many people are afraid to go out and face to face. And for some, this is a new thing for them. They really hadn’t been doing this before. However, in my case, I’ve been teaching this for over 30 years. I actually got my start in my first sales job. My first paid sales job, I was 13 years old and I would take a bus down into downtown Omaha and my voice had changed at the time. So I was, I was hired to do a telemarketing where we were selling tickets to the policeman’s fundraiser circus. And in retrospect, I don’t even think there was a circus.

Art (2m 50s):

I think it was a big scam, but that was my first paid sales job in a boiler room. And it seems like I gravitated towards those type sales jobs, all throughout high school and college. And as it turned out, my first corporate sales job, it was with the old at T and T way back in the day, doing sales, doing inside sales and also consulting with companies on how they could do it themselves and left there after a short period of time and started my consulting and training business. And here I am 30 plus years later and overnight success.

Jesse (3m 27s):

Yeah. The 30 years in the making. That’s great. So for us, what we, well, we often hear about sales in general and I’m sure you’ve dealt with this over your career is just that it’s, it’s a, it’s a bad word. It’s, it’s an industry that people oftentimes don’t have trust with and people are afraid to use it. And people are afraid to put the salesperson quotation as a profession that we should really admire in a lot of ways. Can you talk a little bit about why you think that connotation even today still still kind of exists and, and why it is an unfair characterization of, of sales in general?

Art (4m 3s):

Well, I actually think it’s, it’s a fair characterization based on people’s evidence, the evidence being the number of poor salespeople out there who have really jaded the whole profession of sales in many people’s mind. And we’ve all been subjected to horrible salespeople, bad pitches, unethical salespeople, and as a result, stereotypes have been formed. So, and, and that, and plus the fact that just, I mean, psychologically, we don’t want to be sold being sold, meaning being pushed we’re we’re having somebody try to pitch their ideas on us trying to sell something that we don’t want, or we don’t need maybe using some high pressure.

Art (4m 48s):

So yeah, I mean, it’s no wonder that sales has been given and earned that, that connotation. Now with that being said, sales is the greatest profession in the world when done professionally. And as the old saying goes, nothing really happens until something is sold. And actually let’s turn that around and say, nothing really happens until somebody buys something. And my definition of sales in the professional sense is simply helping people and it’s helping people buy. And when done professionally, the person at the other end doesn’t feel like they need a shower. Matter of fact, they don’t feel like they were sold. They felt like they were empowered. They made the decision and they really enjoyed the experience.

Art (5m 31s):

And that’s what professional sales is all about. And that’s what I’ve been teaching for 30 plus years. And my specialty of course, has been doing that over the phone, which is much harder than doing it face to face because we’re losing over half our means of communication. Of course today video helps that a little bit, but still nothing beats being out there face to face, unless of course somebody is wearing a mask, then it makes it a little bit harder to communicate for sure. So since the, the shuttle

Jesse (5m 58s):

Launch and we went to the moon, I think in our hands, we have more computing capacity than the computers that they used back then. So the phone has evolved over time, but the concept of cold calling via phone, I think has changed to a certain extent. Why do you think the phone is so vital and so important with calling? And maybe you could, I’ll ask a leading question. Why is phone calling phone cold calling not dead?

Art (6m 25s):

Well, actually I would say that the cold part is dead, but not the calling. And if, if you, if you think about it in a business sense, calling somebody is the quickest cheapest, and probably easiest way to initiate a sales conversation with someone who had, we had never, ever had contact with before and who was not expecting to hear from us. And matter of fact, didn’t even know that we existed. Now, people will say, well, you can use direct mail. You can use email if you use social media and all this stuff. Yeah. You can do all that, but I could grow a lot older and a lot grayer waiting for somebody to respond to some marketing outreach, as opposed to me just simply picking up the phone and engaging somebody in a conversation right away.

Art (7m 18s):

Now there’s a right way and a wrong way to do that. And that the cold part would be the wrong way to do it. And a smart calling would be the right way to do it. And probably that would, that would initiate the next question, which is what is smart calling smart calling. Let me go. I’ll just do the show. Yeah.

Jesse (7m 38s):

Yeah. Well, I mean that, that really was the, like I said, in the, at the outset of the show, that was really what connected me to a lot of your work is seeing the book smart calling on multiple, you know, top five, top 10 lists for, for sales in general. And we’ll put a link up to the book in the show notes, but yeah, maybe just as that, that opening question, what is smart calling?

Art (7m 59s):

Well, smart calling is pretty simple. It’s knowing something about the, the people, the organization, if we’re calling business to business and in either case the situation that they may be experiencing in their world, right at that very moment, and that using that information then to tailor our possible value proposition so that it is more relevant, it’s personalized as customized and therefore has a greater chance of peaking curiosity so that we can engage someone in a conversation, which really is all that the beginning of a phone call is intended to do to get somebody in a positive, receptive state of mind and get them talking from that positive, receptive state of mind, as opposed to the state of mind that most cold calls initiate, which is resistance.

Art (8m 54s):

Hmm. So I took

Jesse (8m 56s):

A couple of notes. I think it was a few podcasts ago on yours. And I think it, I think there were seven, but basically it was the anatomy of a smart call. And it talked a lot about kind of your prior research, your value proposition, social engineering. So maybe you could go through a few of those steps and help our listeners target. And whether that is, you know, brokers looking for business or investors, like in our podcast case, reaching out to, to ownership, what are those steps? And, and what’s the right way to think about them.

Art (9m 26s):

Sure. Well, yeah, let me just kind of summarize it because I could spend probably 10 hours going through it and I have, so the, the first step in the process is big picture and that is identifying what is your possible value for, or in general, what is a possible value that you provide? So of course, if, if you’re a broker you’re, you’re providing service and all of the affiliated things that might be surrounding what you do individually, that differentiates you or your agency, right? If you’re an investor, of course, probably it’s going to be the money or is going to be being able to have a quick close, pretty easy close, right.

Art (10m 8s):

Maybe offer more than what they were expecting. I don’t know. Again, you have to determine that, but that, that’s what I call your possible value proposition, because people want to know the answer to this question, what’s in it for me, what are you going to do for me? And that’s where so many people just drop the ball right? At the beginning, they make it about themselves as opposed to what does this person really want or what do they want to avoid and how can I hint at that right at the beginning. So there’s some, some thinking, some planning that goes into effect, even before we get close to placing a call. Now we’re doing that at a macro level. Now at a micro level prior to placing a call and I’m doing several things. Number one, I’m doing some research, I’m doing some research on if I’m calling in individual.

Art (10m 51s):

I mean, there’s all kinds of information available on people, right? I’ll get do is go to a Google. If they have a LinkedIn page, they have social media. We can, we can gather all kinds of things. Now, of course, there might be some people out there going, geez, wouldn’t that be borderline stalking? Well, I mean, only if you’re creepy about it, but also, I mean, consider, if somebody puts up information online, it’s in the public domain. I think that the whole stocking thing is kind of going by the wayside again, unless somebody is being creepy about it. So there’s all kinds of information that I can find out about someone on an individual basis. And then of course, businesses a ton more information.

Art (11m 31s):

And of course, what I’m looking for is something that’s going to help me make a connection with that person in order to weave that into my possible value proposition right at the beginning. So I’m doing my research and then I’m of course setting my objectives for the call. What do I want to accomplish as a result of this call? So just very simply having a goal and then I’m planning out what am I going to say in the first 10 or 15 seconds if I get them alive, which you’re probably not going to most of the time, right? Or if I reach voicemail and the key with voicemail is essentially having it be the same message that you would give if they picked up the phone live.

Art (12m 13s):

Now here’s the key with voicemail or with your opening statement. The all we’re trying to do is pique. Curiosity. We’re trying to get someone in a frame of mind where they’re wondering, Hmm. I wonder what that is. I wonder how they do that. And with the voicemail, I want to leave a question in their mind that they want the answer to now with a voicemail. And I’m also going to do is I’m going to back that up with an email and I’m going to let them know I’ll be calling back or if they would like to reply to me, here’s my phone number. Or if they could suggest a better time when we could speak, please reply with that as well. So I’m doing all that in, in the voicemail with my interest, creating opening, again, I’m hinting at my possible value, what I may be able to do for them.

Art (12m 57s):

And then I want to get them to the questions I’m not asking for a decision. That’s a big, that’s a big mistake, right? At the beginning. I’m not telling somebody that I want to buy their property. I want to make them an offer because I mean, God knows. They’ve heard that how many times already? Right. Both alive and on the robocalls. So I want them thinking, huh? Okay. Because the way I end my opening on my spark call opening is with, with something like this, and what I’d like to do is ask you a few questions to see if it might be worthwhile for us to have a further conversation. And that’s the easiest decision for them to make. I don’t want to say anything. That’s going to cause them to say, Oh, it’s another one of those real estate guys, or it’s another real estate broker click, right?

Art (13m 42s):

Or I’m going to go into, let’s get rid of salesperson mode. And then what I’m going to do is I’m going to get into the questioning, which is really what a professional sales call is all about asking questions. And then based on their answers, making the recommendation for the next step and asking for commitment. And really there you have it, the entire sales process. That’s simple, right?

Jesse (14m 6s):

I like it. And kind of weaved in there is this a concept that you’ve talked about before called social engineering? Cause oftentimes we don’t hit that decision maker right away. So if you’re that person looking for real estate, you reach out to what you think is the owner. And you get, say a property management company, or you get an executive assistant. You actually, what I liked is you look at that differently. You don’t look at that as an obstacle. You look at that as another way to kind of build value. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that term social engineering and how that can really assist you when you do get to a decision maker.

Art (14m 38s):

Yeah, there, there are so many myths of sales going back to what you said, having sales, having, you know, leaving a bad taste in many people’s mouth. And I think part of it too, as many of the things that salespeople are taught that they continue to perpetuate. And one of these myths is you need to go above around, through or over the gatekeeper or the screener. And my approach is opposite of that because that person and I don’t like to use the word gatekeeper or screener, I like to call them the assistant because they’re the decision-makers assistant and they’re our assistant as well, because they can be one of our most valuable resources in gathering intelligence. That’s going to help us put together a better hospital value proposition.

Art (15m 21s):

And also they can help us get in to speak with, or even see the decision-maker. So we need to treat this person as the most important person in the world.

2 (15m 32s):

Excuse me. Also,

Art (15m 34s):

Anybody we come in contact with, we want to treat as the most important person in the world, which leads us into social engineering. Social engineering by definition is simply asking questions of anyone for the purposes of gathering intelligence. Now the term was popularized notoriously by computer hackers, back in the, in the mid nineties, who would call into companies and still do by the way, fishing for information. So they could hack into the computer system or phone system. But we’re going to use social engineering for reputable purposes. Because again, we’re just simply trying to help the decision makers. So what I want to do is whomever I’m speaking within that organization, before I get to that decision maker, I want to ask them some questions.

Art (16m 19s):

So I want to find out, are they looking to expand? Are they looking for more office space? Who are, who are they represented by now? What are they like? What don’t they like all of these things that might help me have an edge that I can hint at when I’m putting my message together for the decision makers. And some people say, well, you know, people are busy. They’re not going to answer those questions. Well, you know what? People are conditioned to answer questions. If you ask them and I’ve got a process, pretty simple process where I suggest identifying yourself, your organization, use the magic H word. I hope you can help me.

Art (16m 59s):

And then using what’s called a justification statement where I’m giving a reason for asking the questions. So it would be like this. Yay. Hey, Jesse, our subject here with business by phone, and we’re going to be speaking with your VP of property management. And I want to make sure I’m prepared when I do now, that was the justification statement. So what did I just do there? I actually, if I’m talking to an assistant, I’m helping them do their job because I told you I want to be prepared when I speak to that person. I’m not just trying to blow my way through. And then I end that with, and I’d like to ask you a couple of questions. Now, notice the wording there. I’m not saying, may I ask you some questions, which by the way, as a question in and of itself, I say, I’d like to ask you a few questions.

Art (17m 42s):

And normally the response is, Oh, okay. And now I just simply ask the questions

2 (17m 48s):

Simple as that. So there’s a few things

Jesse (17m 50s):

And you know, you said myth before, and I just found that salespeople, there’s a couple, there’s a number of ways that we do calls. And I’ve heard from time to time younger guys in our company and gals that we’ll get on the phone and say, you know, Hey art, I’m Jessica galley from XYZ. How are you doing today? Awkward pause. What are your thoughts on the opening of, you know, you don’t know this person, you’re saying, how are you doing? Like when you’re trying to get on a call, are you trying to get, say, identify who you are, where you’re calling from and then just get into it.

Art (18m 22s):

Well, yeah, I mean, this has been a, a point of contention and argument for forever. And that is a matter of fact, a friend of mine right up there from, from Canada, Jim demand, ski. He was also a sales trainer came up with the, the term for that. He calls it the hate statement. H a Y T how are you today? Or the hate question and my feeling on that is that it really depends. It depends on, are you comfortable using it? I mean, let’s face it. If we’re face to face, we’re normally going to have exchange some pleasantries before we get into business. Now the phone is more of a formal business tool, so it is more acceptable to just get right into business.

Art (19m 5s):

However, some people are still are conditioned to have a little bit of small talk. So what I tell people is it always depends. Number one on you and how comfortable are you with it? And normally when I’m in a seminar or a workshop, I ask people how many loved to do it? How many hate to do it? And normally I’m getting about maybe 20, 30% on each side. Everybody else is in the middle. It kind of depends for me. It kind of depends. It depends on how do they answer the phone? What kind of vibe am I getting? What kind of tone of voice am I getting? And if I detect that this is somebody that is probably a little bit more friendly, probably a little bit more used to small talk. I will use a variation.

Art (19m 45s):

I’m not going to say, how are you today? All right, it’s going to be genuine and say, how was your what’s today? How is your Monday afternoon going and or hope you’re having a great day. I variation. So it’s not something that sounds the same as everything else. And if we are going to use it, listen to the answer. If somebody says, well, it’s been a, it’s been a tough day today. Oh, how so? As opposed to, Oh fine. Thank you. Hey, the reason for the call is

Jesse (20m 12s):

Yeah, no, that’s a great point. And maybe you could talk a little bit about, you’ve talked about the things you should do. What are some things you see time and time again that are just right away, things that we should be avoiding. And some of those mistakes that people make on the phone when they’re calling

Art (20m 29s):

Well, one is not having any possible value for the person at the other end of the line. Because again, the only reason they’re going to stay on the phone with you is that they see something of potential value. Now, what we don’t want to do with that being said is just give our entire pitch or ask for a decision. So those are so in your business. And I know from getting these calls myself, let’s say, as the consumer call or you’re calling say a homeowner or even a property owner, we don’t want to start out and say, Hey, art subject here. And I’m looking to buy homes in your neighborhood. Are you interested? It’s like, no click. I mean, first of all, we’re hitting somebody out of the blue. They don’t know you.

Art (21m 8s):

And we’re asking for a decision. They weren’t sitting there probably thinking about selling their home. Now, if you’re just doing the pure numbers game where you’re hoping to one out of 10,000, you know, might be ready and we find, go for that. But boy, that’s gonna make you tired. I want to, I would, I would use a smart call. I would still do a little bit of research. I just wouldn’t be calling random phone numbers. If I’m specifically looking at a property, I’d want to know something about that property. I want to I’d want to do a Google search on the, on the homeowner, something that’s going on in the neighborhood. Of course I’d want to be aware of the neighborhood and prices and maybe similar listings right now, comparables. I want to have all those things in hand so that I could maybe pique their curiosity and cause them to think, well, this sounds a lot different.

Art (21m 55s):

This person sounds like they know something about me now. And I’ll see, all we want to do then is engage them in conversation. Because if we can’t engage somebody in conversation, we’ve got zero chance of buying the property, right?

Jesse (22m 7s):

Yeah. For sure. One thing I find too is, especially with, with younger salespeople, is that over the years, when you do get more experience, even if you’re not great on the phone, you know, your industry well enough that you’re able to pivot quickly. So I’ll hear oftentimes young people to get on a phone call and they hear an objection. They they’ve never heard before. And it just, they get stultified and then boom, two seconds go by that calls done. You, you know, you haven’t, you’ve lost that interest. So have you seen that with, with the people that you train and, and aside from just knowing as much as you can, about what you’re selling, how do we try to develop in a way that we can be on the fly, being able to keep a natural conversation going?

Art (22m 46s):

Well, one is experience and it’s simply getting kicked in the teeth and making the mistakes and experiencing the things that we’re inevitably going to experience on phone calls. Here’s the thing we cannot control the person at the other end of the line. All we can control is what we say and how we react to what happens to us. And we’ll get into resistance and rejection here in a minute. But the key to being smooth is being <inaudible> first. And anybody who is really truly good at this has put in some time have they’ve experienced setbacks, but you know what?

Art (23m 38s):

They didn’t let it deter them. They did two things. One is they learned from whatever that setback was, instead of saying, Ooh, he got rejected. They simply asked himself a question at the end of that. And they said, what did I learn from that? And the other actually two questions and what will I do differently the next time I hear that resistance or that objection or that question? Because I mean, let’s face it. We’re all probably going to be blabbering fools at some point on phone calls. I try to minimize it. But I mean, there are still cases where I’ll get off a call and go, wow, I probably could have said something a little bit differently there.

Art (24m 18s):

I don’t care how good you are. You never graduate from this school. You will always get a little bit better if you work at it. So there’s two ways to get experience. One is to experience something yourself, a de Einstein, right? Here’s the other way simulate the experience. Yeah. And how do we do that? Well, we talked to other people, Hey, if you’re new in a company, you talk to the other sales reps and say, Hey, what are the common objections that you run into? How do you handle it, listen to their calls. And then you can do role-play situations either with someone else. Or you could just do it yourself. You can say, for example, okay, if I hear this boom, how am I going to respond?

Art (24m 59s):

So that’s one way to shorten the learning curve. So you’re simulating the experience because it’s going to take them a long time. If you have to experience everything that you need to in order to get truly smooth. Yep.

Jesse (25m 11s):

And, and I say just as an illustration that, you know, we’re always learning is to this day, the first call or the first couple of calls of the day, it’s always a, for me, a head shaker, I’m like, ah, man, you know you until you’re kind of in the zone. And you’re like, okay, here we go. But th that’s a great, that’s a great point. And maybe going from there to handling that idea of fear of calling, and you touched on it here, we’re just do it more often as one thing. What other things can people do that it was just like, there is a big fear. I remember when I first started in real estate and it was a, like, I think it’s terrifying for most people, just this idea that you’re going to bug somebody for whatever reason and you kind of have to win it.

Jesse (25m 53s):

And the first few are after you’ve been kicked in the teeth, doesn’t really help. Doesn’t make you want to make more calls. So how did people get their, get their heads around that as individuals in sales or as investors that are calling these properties?

Art (26m 6s):

Well, and there’s several components to this. And most of them involve mindset. One though, is, is more strategic and tactical, and that is doing whatever you can to have a good approach. Okay. So a smart calling approach, whether you use my approach or somebody else’s out there, I mean, it’s, it’s not that difficult to put something together that is going to be fruitful and doesn’t sound like the typical salesperson. Who’s just winging it and cold calling. Okay. So have a good process. And in place in the messaging is the what to say and how to say it.

Art (26m 48s):

Now with that being said, I firmly believe that about 90% of everything we accomplish in life is due to how we feel before and when, and after we’re doing it. And the problem with a lot of people is that they look at what happens to them on phone calls, as this thing called rejection. That’s another myth of sales. That’s been perpetuated. You got a lot of rejection for every, no, you get you’re that much closer to a yes, no, you’re not. If you’re not doing the right thing, you’re going to continue to get the bad result that you don’t want. That’s giving you the bad feeling. So here’s what we’re doing on our calls is going to create an experience.

Art (27m 30s):

How we react to that experience is totally under our control. If we call it rejection, we’re going to feel like we were rejected. But if we look at that call and we say, all right, well, at least I asked this question. At least I found out they’re not a prospect. At least I kept the door open for a future contact because they may be open to selling in six months. Now all of those are possible wins. I mean, they’re not, I mean, they’re not huge things, unless of course you consider your attitude to be a huge thing, which actually it is see when we’re in sales. And if we’re prospecting, we’re actually doing the equivalent of going out on the highway, a four lane highway and playing in heavy traffic.

Art (28m 18s):

Occasionally you’re going to get sideswiped every once in a while you take one broad side. Now how you react to that really is going to determine how well you’re going to do the rest of the day, the week, the month, the year, your career for that matter. So really it’s just a matter of telling yourself a different story about the experience. Rejection is not an experience. It’s the negative story someone tells himself about the experience.

Jesse (28m 43s):

Yeah, for sure. And I think for our industry in real estate, you try to explain to people that listen, the average holding of a property you see in a specific asset class might be seven years. You can’t think that you’re going to call this person. And then you’re just, you’re just going to line up a sale right away. Oftentimes these are relationships that we develop over years. You know, just a perfect example is I connected with a client that I had been following up with for a year and a half. And every time if I took it as a rejection, when they said, just bugger off for now and for now and for now until eventually during COVID, Oh, you know what? We’re looking at, doing something different here. Thank you for following up again. Last week with the, you know, the summary you gave us on the report and had I not continued to follow up, it would have just gone, gone by the wayside.

Jesse (29m 28s):

So I think that’s a great point. One thing I wanted to touch on here is, you know, given 2020, right now, we’ve got zoom, we’ve got email, we’ve got all these additional items. And I think it was a, a guest you had on your show that said something to the effect of phone has never been more intimate than right now. And I think what he was getting at was the fact that a lot of times it’s the zoom calls we are being seen by people. So we’re, we’re kind of, we’re kind of like this we’re tightened and tightened up where now when I pick up the phone, it’s almost a relaxed setting. Can you talk a little bit about how you think the impact of this pandemic has impacted calling by phone and what you think will be the result of that with, with your crystal ball?

Art (30m 9s):

Well, I’ve never been very good at predicting the future. However, what has happened is that it, the people who were doing this well, doing this, meaning using the phone before the pandemic are now absolutely killing it because of course everybody is being forced to do it. And if somebody right now isn’t good or comfortable with it, you know what, this is a learned skill. You can get comfortable with it. And is it more intimate? Is it more relaxed? Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of people that are suffering from zoom fatigue right now, and they hate to be on camera and it’s just not their thing.

Art (30m 52s):

So by using the phone, everybody speaks all the time, right? And the, the key again is being conversational, being natural. But by the same time, being competent and confident in, in what you’re saying, people want to speak to someone who they perceive as being an expert in their field. And they just don’t want to talk to some Schmoe off the street is making a thousand calls, looking to buy property or looking to represent somebody. And we communicate an image that people form within the first second of conversation.

Art (31m 34s):

And you totally control that. And the great thing is it’s a lot easier to change the way we sound than it is the way we look so we can record ourselves. And if we don’t like what we’re hearing, Hey, figure out what that is. And whether it’s your tone, whether it’s the <inaudible> or eyes, whether it’s your cadence, any of those things, we can work on all those. And again, that’s, that’s, I mean, we’re, we’re in the, we’re in the performance business and every performer has their performances recorded and critiqued, and that’s how they improve. And that’s what we should be doing. Every salesperson should be doing.

Art (32m 15s):

If they have the desire to be the best at what they do.

Jesse (32m 19s):

That’s a great point. And it’s always amazed me because we talk about practice in sports so much in our industry. I think disproportionately, especially in Toronto, a lot of hockey players, a lot of ex hockey player. So we have this idea of constantly training, practicing. And then you asked, do you guys practice at all when it comes to cold calling? And usually the answer is no, we just, we go, we pick up the phone and we hope we get year after year. I’d like to talk about the process that you use or the, that you teach when it comes to a little bit of the strategy of calling. And what I mean by that is the call, the email, the follow-up, you know, do you have a protocol that you’d like to see that, you know, you do that call and then right after the call, you’re sending an email or do you have a little bit more of a drip campaign?

Art (33m 3s):

Well, I don’t suggest any one, one size fits all for everybody. And that’s where I differ from a lot of people out there. Some people will say, well, this is the system you should be following it. It’s like, are you kidding me? I mean, how do you build a house? I don’t know. I don’t know what size of house, what, what kind of house. Right. So I suggest that what, there, there are a variety of different options available to us. So for example, if you want to warm up the call, there’s a lot of different ways to do that. We can send an email, we can send it InMail on LinkedIn. If we have their cell phone, we may be able to send a text. I’m not sure if you can do that up in Canada. I’m not even sure if we can do that here, unsolicited, but you’d have to be careful with that as well.

Art (33m 44s):

I’m a believer in sending things physical through actual mail. Cause if you think about it today, what is old is new again? And there’s one thing that’s guaranteed to always get opened. And that’s a handwritten note with a live stamp on it. That’s always going to get opened. And me personally, when I want to make an impact with somebody, I have the luxury of being able to send a copy of a signed book. And I know you had mentioned sending somebody a report and I mean, the opportunities here are limitless. So if you want a warm up a call, make sure that you’re not just sending something where it’s all about you and you’re sending a pitch or asking for a decision, okay, you’re just peaking some curiosity.

Art (34m 31s):

Then the phone call itself, of course the goal is to open up a conversation, gets somebody interested to get them curious. And the goal of every call is to end with some type of commitment for the next action, whatever that next action might be. And as you mentioned, it’s probably pretty likely you’re not going to get a sale on every single call or, or most of the calls you’re not, but I would like to get some kind of commitment that something’s going to happen between now and the next call. And it could be as minor as we’re going to leave the door open to the future contact. Kinda like you said, where you had somebody that you’re only talking to maybe every six months or so now after that what’s the followup procedure.

Art (35m 14s):

Well, you could have a stay in touch campaign. I can, again, depending on what your objective is with somebody and how long you feel the sales cycle might be. It could be maybe touching them every three months or so with some type of value, some type of report, similar sales in their area or listings or so on. And then that, that follow-up call. And then the followup call again, should tie into the previous call where whatever it was that you had discussed, if they were interested in something and then bringing something new to the table for this call as well, again, bringing some potential value because really what you want is when they are ready, you want them to think, yeah, Jesse’s been contacting me and he’s been giving me all this great information.

Art (36m 3s):

That’s the guy. I think that would be right for working with us and, and representing us.

Jesse (36m 10s):

That makes a lot of sense. And I think just to that example that I gave, one of the other questions I would have is that the follow-up, you know, by definition, you’re following up with something, but oftentimes as you know, we’ll send an email, we don’t get anything back, send another email, add value, don’t get anything back. Is there a certain point where you cut your losses with that? Or do you always just try to continue to kind of either by phone or by email? Because with that example, I was sending kind of, you know, I would put it out there and oftentimes it would go a very long time without a response at all. And had, I just stopped that, you know, we, we wouldn’t be transacting now with them. So what’s your take on, on that?

Art (36m 48s):

Well, again, it depends. It depends on what is the potential of this prospect. So if, if I’m prospecting a big name, you know, an Amazon or Google or, you know, anybody with a lot of potential, I’m probably going to be less likely to give up on that person, but somebody else, yeah. Maybe I will decide that it’s, I’ve reached the point of diminishing returns here. In that case, I might just use a last resort technique. It might be a just averaged out several times about now, again, you want to always reiterate the potential value here. I’m going to assume at this point, since we’ve not actually spoken, this may not be a priority for you right now.

Art (37m 33s):

If things change, keep in mind that now here is where I would add some thing about what we do. And it’s only here where I would mention that because now, and of course this would, this would be some potential value. We’ve represented many other property owners or people looking for property in your situation. And here’s what we’ve been able to help them do. And if you find things are changing or if you’re noticing this, I would insert a problem, keep in mind that we could help you with that. And that’s never keep my, keep my information on file.

Jesse (38m 10s):

Sorry to interrupt there. That’s a great point. And I would only add to that something that my partner and I, what we will often do is we’ll see if there’s something topical. I don’t know if you notice Brookfield properties bought the property adjacent to yours, you know, whatever three weeks ago, or there was a zoning change and then, okay, wait a minute. When was this a week ago? And sometimes it, it just kind of shakes up somebody that had gone cold art. I think we’ve, we’ve done the fastest basically primer on your book and, and smart calling. Cause we’re almost at the end here. And we normally ask all of our guests for questions, a little bit of a rapid fire. So if, if that’s all right with you, I can, I can get started.

Art (38m 51s):

Okay. I haven’t prepared. So go ahead.

Jesse (38m 55s):

Well, you’re pretty quick on your feet. So what’s something that, that, you know right now in your career, whether that’s in business or specifically in sales or training that you wish you knew when you started,

Art (39m 5s):

If I had to do anything differently, I would probably have specialized more in a niche that was very specific as opposed to more of a general niche, which is of course the phone. Now, of course I’ve not of course, but I’ve done very well in, in that area. But as people say, the riches are in the niches. So if you can be known as the guy or the gal in this particular area, as the go-to, as the specialist, as the expert, then people will seek you out more often. And of course you will have a higher level of status or authority in your area.

Art (39m 47s):

And with that being said, become the person, the expert in that area,

Jesse (39m 53s):

Who were some of your early mentors and what are your views on mentors in general?

Art (39m 58s):

Well, I, I would say everybody learns from everybody else. I mean, we don’t really have original thoughts, right? So who were some of my early mentors? I look back on, I tried to consume every sale, single sales book. I could back when I got into business back in the early eighties. So I would look at some of the old names, certainly from, from a motivational standpoint, big influences on me were Dale Carnegie or Earl Nightingale. And then as things progressed, I would say one of the biggest influences both from a marketing perspective.

Art (40m 39s):

And I consider myself a marketer as well as a salesperson, as well as using what he puts out in sales was Robert Cialdini and his book influence, which is still the gold standard for anybody in, in sales and marketing. It should be recommended reading for, for anybody. So I would suggest that wherever you are in your career, go out and find people who you admire, who put out great information, follow them, and also look at the successful people in your business and copy them, find out what are they doing. I mean, don’t try to reinvent the wheel, do the things that the successful people are doing. I mean, don’t try to be them, but look at their methodologies.

Jesse (41m 20s):

Yeah, that’s great. There’s a, a, you mentioned Omaha a little earlier. It just got me thinking of Warren buffet. He has a, a, a quote that says, if you come into my office, something to the effect of, if you come into my office, I did business school over here. I did my MBA over here. Only thing on my wall is a little Dale Carnegie. Basically I went to the training certificate and I just think that’s, that’s great. So the third question is, is on that book. So it looks like you taught, you know, touched on it there with influence with children. Is there, are, are there other books that you found that were just very impactful for your career?

Art (41m 54s):

Oh, you know, there, there were so many, I think early on, as far as sales books, spin selling had a, a big effect on me because it really broke down the consultative, sell and, and questioning and put it into a process. I mean, some things in that are a little dated right now, but still most of the things apply today. And I’m actually another mentor of mine is probably one of the greatest marketers of all time is Dan Kennedy. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Dan and I actually know Dan and he’s referred me business over the years.

Art (42m 33s):

And if you look at any of his books, the guy guy’s just absolutely brilliant. So I would say that the no BS series of books written by Dan Kennedy’s,

Jesse (42m 44s):

It’s great. And as listeners know my personal favorite question, first car make and model.

Art (42m 49s):

My first car was a 1967 a rambler. And yeah, and I got it when actually it was 19 is when did I turn 16? I turned 16 in 1975. So it was a little beat up a little rusted out. And that was back when cars did not, at least this car did not have carpet and it had a rusted out, rusted out a four board on the passenger side. So rumor has it that some people drop beer cans out of there w when they were driving, not me, but some people who might’ve been riding with me,

Jesse (43m 24s):

I’m going to, I’m going to just guess here, but for listeners that don’t know, I believe that would be an AMC car, the same, same company that made the DeLorean. I have that, right?

Art (43m 35s):

Yeah. I don’t think they were making the DeLorean at the time. At the time. It was, it was American motors. And then my next car after that was another American motors. Cause that I inherited from my parents, which was a Hornet. Okay. Right,

Jesse (43m 47s):

Right on. Well, listen, art that what a great summary. I, I like you, I could talk, I could talk hours about sales real estate. So thank you so much for coming on. I’d like to put a couple links to where people can reach you for the podcast or any other reason, maybe you could just give a, a couple of areas that they can go to. Yeah,

Art (44m 8s):

Absolutely. My podcast is the art of sales, the art of If people are interested in getting the book, I don’t sell the book myself, but I have a page for the book where you can buy it through your retailer of choice. But more importantly, I put together a companion resource where I’ve got audios videos, text scripts, webinars, all kinds of stuff that you’ll get for free. Once you get the book and you can get and then a blog site that links to everything else I have is just smart. And you can contact me there as well.

3 (44m 48s):

My guest today has been art subject art. Thanks so much for coming on working capital.

Art (44m 52s):

Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure

3 (44m 59s):

Favor. Listening to the working capital podcast. My goal is to help individuals break into real estate investing as well as educate experienced investors. If you enjoyed the show, please share with a friend subscribe and give us a rating on iTunes. It really helps us. If you have any questions, want to learn more or likely to cover a specific topic on the show. Please reach out to me via My name is Jessica galley, and I’ll see you back here for the next episode of the working capital real estate podcast.