If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. Example; a bb to the eyeball is very effective. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. Its only a pistol. Both are great calibers. I am not sure why Ruger did not enter a weapon into the competition (like the new American pistol), but it could be that they looked at the RFP and made a determination that for some reason their pistols didnt fit the bill, or perhaps they decided it wasnt worth it. Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. If we had had 45acp in the hands of the FBI in most every one of these complete inept foul ups they would likely have never happened and the debate would only be Glock or 1911 45 acp. The projectile is losing velocity and arcing downward. But with my Kimber Colt 45 I hit first shot no problem and it left that watermellon in disaster. Because size is king? But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue. The latest testing shows that modern 9mm performs pretty much as well as the other common semi-auto options, and since it carries more rounds and is easier to shoot (and I dont care who you are, but it is easier/faster to shoot compared to the larger calibers), it is fairly sound logic to select the 9mm. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. This represents a cultural shift in America. Ultimately, your selection of a caliber should be based first on the penetration, and second on the unexpanded size of the round. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. What type of bullet is being fired? What I have found, is its a matter of preference. This doesnt factor shot placement. While psychological factors incapacitate more assailants than physiological factors, they are also the primary reason for a failure to incapacitate. So you better have the biggest heaviest bullet going down range that you can possibly get. The issue is the 9mm one penetrated which resulted in through and through shots. Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. During a dynamic gun battle with erratic movement by both officer and adversary, this requires extraordinary marksmanship or, more likely, pure luck. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. Now thats hilarious. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. In most courtrooms today a good lawyer will take you apart for shooting a home invader more than one time if you hit him with the first shot in other words you wounded him with the first shot why did you keep shooting? Maximum velocity is achieved only at barrel exit, then slows during flight through the viscous median known as our environment (air). Glocks are cheap, reliable, and have built a big following. I have yet to see this. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. 45 ACP Penetrative powers of various types of ammunition - Ballistics I have read how the 124gr 9mm ammo used by NATO does not do its intended job. Practice while on the move. Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? John I agree, the Browning Black Label in 380 ACP is a superb gun. The .22, meanwhile, leaves the muzzle at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. When the. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. and love a SA trigger. Trauma surgeons, the guys actually opening up peoples chests and trying to put them back together, say otherwise. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. 45 guy and .357 mag lover . To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. The officer fired three round from his 9mm Baretta 92F. Most of the ballistic testing I have seen comparing the penetration of various bullets and calibers would suggest that generally, a .45ACP and 9mm are both quite comparable as far as penetration is concerned. Gimme a break! Then you missed. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. I would challenge anyone to shoot a 9mm against my 45 and, I promise my 45 will be the 9mm all day everyday. Think the title of this article is misleading. So if my pill hit my target in a less than optimal body section with ball ammo, Ill opt for the bigger ball every time. Fire Rate: 850 rounds/minute. .45 ACP 10 Round Magazine mobility debuff removed, and .45 ACP 17 Round Magazine mobility increased from 96% to 98%. Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 450 ft/s will make a hole in, but not penetrate 4" plate glass. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. Sound familiar?? Hydrostatic shock Thats funny. I notice one parameter that seems to be ignored. Lexipol. 45 ACP To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. What that means is that handgun bullets, as opposed to the devastating wound channels rifle projectiles can cause, are only just poking little holes in people. I owned a 9mm years ago and liked the gun, though the grip was too large for me due to the double stack magazine. The round severed Platts brachial artery, passing through the arm into his chest and almost entirely through his right lung. Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. Government can spend less of my tax dollars (maybe. The .357sig does have very impressive ballistics. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. I see your point. WebThe Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. When dealing with a highly motivated target, milliseconds matter. Yes I can only get 2 shots off accurately in the same time as 4 with a 9 but again 2 usually does it. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. If Im in my own home in a self-defense scenario, at any distance, Im armed with a 12 gauge, and the whole pistol capacity and power debate is moot. The Human Torso Test. According to a sweeping 2016 survey, there were, at that time, more guns in the hands of Americans than there are cars on the road. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. I think that the argument here has gone the wrong direction. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? At 10-20 yards I want a .45. We do, however, have reliable information from labs with regard to how much tissue rounds destroy. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? Make your best shot number one. Your story reinforced thisas civilian in counters are closer that usual police work. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Everyone should buy a magnum-powered handgun in .357 or larger caliber and feel completely secure that he or she has the best stopping power. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Has the Marine Corp's choice to transition from 45 ACP to 9mm duty pistols settled the debate on which caliber is better? While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. In the words of Dr. Peter Rhee, a leading trauma surgeon and a retired Navy captain with 24-years of service, talking about all handgun wounds including .45 ACP and 9mm, he said, A Handgun wound is simply a stabbing with a bullet. I know the argument for +P with lighter bullets, but I settled on these because they meet my two most important criteria for defensive ammo penetration and accuracy. style Tommy Gun From my time in the USMC, I saw a certain population fall in love with the 9mm bc of its easier to handle recoil. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. Bullet was military Ball. .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. All righty then, I started with 38 caliber revolvers in the early 70s, 53 yrs later, since few people carry revolvers, capacity, I have bounced back and forth and keep ammo for both 9mm and 45. Since doing some research on the new ammo for the .380 acp, Ive decided that 17-22 of penetration from Lehigh & Ruger Personal Defense rounds, I carry the Browning Black Label .380. People have died from hitting their head just right after slipping at their desk,kitchen. But you have not reached the mark to replace that recoil spring. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. We cannot recreate these or even reliably use the data. Handgun caliber and size is to each is own. Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. With all the discussion about hitting power of the big rounds, That is not the case with the new loads. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. I do not argue with this decision; however, I believe agents who can control the larger weapons/bullets without a problem should have the choice to carry weapons with the larger bullets. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. All of this leads directly to the question of handgun wounding factors: the effectiveness of a handgun, lethality by caliber, and stopping power are all important considerations when purchasing a firearm for self defense. When all else fails, when the rounds fail to stop the bad guy, then you need time on your side. Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). So its all about what fits they individual and what they are comfortable and accurate with. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. You can read all the FBI reports and all the ballistic gel crap you want. For me the thing that has always solved this debate is simple. What more and more people are choosing is CAPACITY. I do think a close range the 45 ACP will knock someone down where ever you hit them. Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies If you are in the sixties o more 9 mm is the best choice. Now that you know where I am coming from. And other trauma surgeons are on record as saying that they cannot tell the difference between wounds caused by 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. I believe the 45 ACP would scare many and they would rarely shoot to their capability. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. laugh at the forensic expert and 2.) After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion. After reading your article, I had to 1.) Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. However, at 15 feet in your living room that is a concern regardless of what you are using unless you have a 22 or a 380. I also could not afford the astronomical price (astronomical in my current budget) shops are now asking for a 4 inch Ruger Redhawk. You're free to republish or share any of our articles (either in part or in full), which are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? And speed kills barriers.